Redundancy - training replacements & other issues

[coffeeslave]

I'm not a parent, but I know there are plenty of wise people here, so I hope you don't mind me asking a question.

I am currently in consultation for redundancy, along with my entire department. From the moment we entered the consultancy period, we heard rumours that the decision had already been made, and that our jobs (which are highly specialised) were being outsourced. Indeed, within a few days we had almost all been phoned by recruitment agents recruiting for this outsourcing company, asking if we would consider being employed by them to do our own jobs! (NB I refused, as I do not want to be employed by an outsourcer).

We are now less than 2 weeks from the end of the consultation period. We are hearing rumours that we will be let go in stages, and that we will be asked to train our replacements (!) from the outsourcing company.

I am, naturally, beyond furious. My other colleagues are mostly nonplussed; however most of my colleagues are unaware of employment law or don't really care. I care about my own rights, however!

My questions are:

1. Can I ask to be let go at the end of the consultation period, instead of being kept on temporarily to train up my replacement? My notice period is 3 months and I do NOT want to work it. I want to move into a new job ASAP.

2. Can I refuse to train up my replacement? Quite frankly, we are not being made redundant - our roles are being transferred but the company is being underhand about it. I cannot stomach the idea of training someone else to do a job I love.

3. Is this all legally dubious? Or are there loopholes in TUPE/redundancy law that are being exploited?

Thank you!

Bumping in case anyone has any advice...

Would be interested to hear any answers as I'm in a situation which has some parallels though not quite the same, and as I'm going I'd like to get out sooner rather than later.

1. Yes you can ask, although you wouldn't have the right to do so and walking out without working your notice may obviously impact any reference you may need from them in future. Technically it would be a breach of contract and therefore theoretically your employer could bring a claim against you but it would be very unlikely to be worth their while doing so unless they had incurred large financial losses as a result.

1. Mmm. Well ordinarily refusal to comply with a reasonable management request would be a disciplinary issue, but a) in the event that you are being replaced (and therefore are not legitimately redundant) there's obviously a strong argument that it would not be a reasonable request. Also, they may not want to bother with a discplinary.

1. Yes it is dubious from what you've said. If the function you and your colleagues are performing is going to continue but will be outsourced, that would be a TUPE, and making staff redundant rather than transferring them over would be unfair dismissal. If there is a reduced requirement for people doing the roles, the staff should be all transferred over, and the new employer could then possibly make redundancies if there are what's called economic technical or organisational reasons.

here are some useful links, including details of exceptions.

www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/BusinessTransfersandtakeovers/DG_10026691

www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/BusinessTransfersandtakeovers/DG_176391

Are there employee representatives involved in this consultation? I would suggest this is raised formally with the employer as soon as possible, ideally by representatives of all affected employees or alternatively by you individually if that's not possible.

If they still go ahead I would suggest appealing your dismissal on the grounds that there is not a genuine redundancy situation and your employment should have continued under TUPE.

Hi flowery, and thank you!

I'm not sure I want to appeal as I just don't want to be here any more - I feel utterly stomped on and just want to leave. I already have had interest from 2 other employers and would really like to be able to tell them when I'll be available.

Unfortunately there is now a rumour that our consultation period won't end when our employer said it will, and they may just keep extending it until they've decided what to do. Can they do that?!

Unfortunately I have yet to have a consultation meeting, and probably won't have one until a week (or less) before the period was initially supposed to end. One colleague who has had a meeting says our boss & the HR person in the meeting were unsure of what is going on and weren't able to give clear answers.

Unfortunately most of my colleagues aren't bothered about the law, and all but two of us have declined even having a consultation meeting! Every time I bring up the law at lunchtime, most of my other colleagues roll their eyes at me, make me feel like I'm being a mouthy nag, and ask me why I care so much. Frankly, I'm shocked, and have stopped trying to advise my colleagues of the law.

As far as I can tell, 8 of us are being replaced by 25(ish) people abroad (in India) and these replacements - or a subset of them - will be coming to the UK to be trained by us. I have taken advice from a union rep here and she has advised that I do not volunteer them any information unless they ask. She has also advised that I only train them in company-specific procedures and not general industry procedures (i.e. I am a web developer, and I should not need to school them in general web development techniques).

It's all very demoralising and horrid. I would almost rather resign & go to a new job without my redundancy pay, than stay here and get my cheque. Unfortunately my notice period is 3 months, so resigning is not really an option.

If the function is being outsourced to India that makes it a bit more complicated, and your employer may be taking the view that as outsourcing to outside the EU is complicated, and no one will want to relocate anyway plus it will be difficult for anyone to enforce their rights against the transferee, straight redundancies are the best option.

If your employer isn't in a position to make a definite decision therr's nothing to stop them extending the consultation period.