Finding your vocation?

[Bobthatsafunnynameforagirl]

DonInKillerHeels, on DillyTante's recent thread on having a job you love, said some very thought provoking things and I am wondering if anyone out there has any interesting thoughts on these great points of hers:

She said that : 'The first thing to identify is what you really, really like doing - what your vocation is. The second thing to identify is what kinds of things you find OK, can do OK and can put up with in order to facilitate what you really like doing.'

I'm just finishing a PhD and thought that an academic job was the holy grail, but deep down know i hate teaching, and am not sure that there is any reality of getting any job in academia at the moment, let alone one based on research.

Does any of you have any tips as to how one identifies one's vocation? I used to get really frustrated when grown ups asked me as a child what I wanted to be when I grew up ... I didn't know then, and now I am still not sure, aged 47! Done lots of things, including having the family, and now need to think about an income stream for when DH retires (he's older)... Lots of skills and strengths, but nothing I can think of as a 'vocation'...

I'd be grateful for any thoughts from anyone.

I'm also just finishing a PhD, & also not wild about an academic job nor confident about the possibility of getting one. I've worked in universities for years & seen so much casual discrimination, unfairness & downright knobbery that I'm really in no rush to go back permanently.

I've spent hours - mostly when I should have been writing - thinking about the very questions you've posed.

I know that I like dealing with people (but not the general public please!), that I love learning new stuff (but not spending hours on my own doing desk research), and that I'd really like to do something related to my PhD.

Um..... Not sure that identifying any of those things takes me any further forward though. I think I need a mentor! I'm passionate about my subject, & it is an applied area, so it ought to offer opportunities. I've been in the field for years, so I have contacts. I'm really struggling to see a way of making a living out of it though, especially as I was earning decent money until about 18 months ago, & one of my reasons for doing the PhD was how little funding was around at the time.

Sorry - none of that was remotely helpful was it?

Are there opportunities within your field but outside academia?

Thanks IsItWine .... It's a toughie, isn't it? And I'd like a mentor too - where can we find one?!

Good luck with whatever you do next ... My field is I think of general interest so I could perhaps at least get a book published: in fact, I think there is a need for an academic book on my topic too, and I know that if I do want any research post, publications are essential. But have I got the balls to pursue that? I'd like to think yes, as the PhD has been a huge investment of a large chunk of time and effort.

I liked your characterisation of university life very much: '...so much casual discrimination, unfairness & downright knobbery' - well put!

Good to know that i am not the only PhD student sitting typing messages on mumsnet instead of writing up a thesis :)

Maybe we could mentor each other?

I sometimes think that balls is exactly what I lack. I spoke to a female academic recently who's all about entrepreneurship (have I spelt that right??). She seemed genuinely enthusiastic about my ideas, was talking about sending me papers she's done on why women often don't just go out & chase their dreams, & for about 20 minutes after I put the phone down I was sooo fired up.

Then I went & settled down to lurking on here for another couple of hours!

There's a PhD comics cartoon that I think must have been based on me. I'll see if I can find it later & link to it.

Will lurk here. Same age as you OP and still no idea of what I want to do. Really. Or what I fancy would take a lot of training that is unaffordable or unfeasible or what I do enjoy doing wouldn't make any money. I suspect go-getters never have these thoughts though and that's what marks them out as different. Maybe not everyone has a vocation (that makes a living) though and that's either unpalatable or liberating, I suppose.

The point about what we are good at/ what we enjoy doing not being something that would make any money Swedish is a good one. ... Perhaps those go-getters just make it happen/have more vision/ have more balls (there you are again IsItWine, those dang things keep coming back) ... I agree Swedish that perhaps not everyone has a vocation: let's see that as liberating us from looking for 'the' thing that some people would have us believe we were 'meant' to do.

IsItWine, let me know if those ideas that got you fired up and enthusiastic seem appealing when you reconsider them. And I think I've seen a PhD comic somewhere, probably via the PhD forum which is another place I lurk instead of working! It seemed very true to life.

Perhaps between us we can share mentoring ideas and throw up enough ideas to generate some suggestions as to doors we can all push.

Thanks everyone for thoughts so far.

Wow. Look at today's PhD comic www.phdcomics.com/comics.php

How ..... weird!

The one I was thinking of shows a girl getting up with a big smiley face, planning all the work she's going to do. Then you see her walking down the road (presumably going in to the university) & she's still all smiley & motivated. She sits down in front of the computer, flexes her fingers... Then just goes & slumps over the keyboard.

Now who's never been there!

DonInKillerHeels really struck a chord with me. I left University knowing I loved writing and I loved science. At the time, I had no idea what kind of job could combine those passions so headed off to work in a lab. Predictably, I hated it.

But after months of looking through the job pages of New Scientist, I finally found a job as a science writer. 12 years on, I've moved into pharmaceutical copywriting. But I've fallen out of love with it a bit, so I started a blog to write what I wanted to write about, whenever I felt like it.

Interestingly, I never write about science on my blog [hmmm] and I'm not sure I have found my true vocation yet.

My DH is the same. His heart lies in academia but he no longer knows what he feels passionate about. He never finished his PhD and regrets that, but has no idea what he would have done if he had finished it.

We're both now searching for the holy grail that will enable us to have the family life/quality of life we crave but enough money to live on so we don't need to worry about it. A lotto win seems to be our only hope of achieving that!

I've found a profession I like - I'm not sure about its being a vocation (I work in tax) but it gives me a lot of interest & satisfaction.

The key for me is that it fulfils my need for intellectual stimulation and is all about the application of a complex framework (tax law) to real life facts (commercial/personal transactions & events).
My degree was in physics, which presses the same intellectual buttons: the application of a complex framework (laws of physics) to real life facts (the physical world).

I rather stumbled into it after doing a PGCE, which set me against teaching because - at a very fundamental level - I was bored telling people about stuff I already knew: I wanted to be learning.

This line of work suits me well - there's always more (and more...) to learn and a whole mass of new practical issues thrown up by changes in legislation and in commercial organisations/personal lives. Though easily bored by doing the easy or the routine, I have rarely been bored at work in the last 13 years. Plus it's well-paid on the whole (current job less so but has other things going for it).
But I think that if I'd found myself in any other profession with the same fundamental quality I would have been just as absorbed. It's a question of working out what it is that you fundamentally enjoy, and want in your life. Then finding a way to get it.

IsItWine - love that PhD Comic - perfect: I must schedule my 5 minute existential crisis for today! And yes, I know well that slumping over the keyboard thing :)

AuntieEstablishment - that's GREAT that you have a job that is interesting and satisfying: they do exist, and the thing is, sometimes one doesn't really know about them, but can stumble across them. I really like your analysis of the both the job and your degree as something that applies a complex framework to life facts/real world. I agree that it's a question of working out what we fundamentally enjoy ... but I think that identifying that for some of us is partially the problem: the 'fundamental' bit means we need to sift below the surface details and find out what it is that is stimulating us in the various things we like and/or are good at.

Eggdipdip - good luck to both you and DH: seems many of us struggle with this one.

Bob, if you don't mind me asking - what field are you in? You can be suitably vague if you prefer.

Auntie - it's great that you've never been bored. I had a university job that I loved... For about 3 years. I stayed in it for a couple more years after that, but I was beyond bored at the end. It just didn't develop in the way I had assumed it would. I don't mean that I couldn't get promotion (though I couldn't - it was very much dead men's shoes). It just got really stale. I started off learning new things, adding to the body of knowledge, feeling really motivated by it etc etc, then it somehow became like Goundhog Day.

I left that job for what initially seemed like a really exciting one, & I was bored by that one within a few weeks. I only stuck it out for a few months (though I might have stuck it for longer had I felt it was going somewhere - it was fairly obvious quite early on that the funding for the post wouldn't survive the cuts)

Re PhD comics; I swear the guy who writes them is spying on me!

Don't mind at all saying what my field is, IsItWine - broadly speaking, cultural history: narrowly speaking, musical life in England during the First World War. So although I suspect I am really a historian rather than a musicologist, I came to this via a music degree and work within a music department now.

Today, I sat in on the candidates' presentations for the job I wasn't shortlisted for. Well, not shortlisting me was clearly the right decision: the calibre was amazing with regard to their research. And three of the five were also great speakers. (Notice, not 5 out of 5! That's the inevitable result of having to short list from papers, I suppose, but a bit frustrating.)

I'm still pondering away - I know there is no 'perfect' solution out there but want to have given life my best shot. Sometimes I feel ways to make an interesting living are out there, but under some sort of a cloaking device, that one needs the secret code to switch off so you can find out what they are!

Oh, I didn't mean I hadn't got bored with a particular angle on the work - I'm on my 4th employer, and all the moves were prompted by (basically) feeling I'd "done" an area and wanted a new thing to do - even if day-to-day it was still interesting. But all in the same professional field, and I've gained some career advancement too - though not as much as if that had been my prime motivation.

I stumbled into it, so I'd say have a go at something, then learn from what you like & dislike to move again if you need.

Bob - I missed out on a job I was a squeak away from getting because in the end they basically measured our publications list & mine was shorter. I know my publications are far from being amazing. I've always prioritised talking to/writing for policy-makers & practitioners rather than other academics because I think it's right for my field, but it's frustrating when one tiny element of the job is given so much importance (one example of the knobbery I mentioned in my first post )

Your area of work sounds really interesting though. I think you're right about the cloaking device. How the hell do we find the code?

Auntie - I think I need to list the things that make me bored & restless & try to work out how to either live with them or avoid them!

IsItWine what an absolute bummer about missing out on that job: the publications thing blinds selection panels (it's all down to the REF I think) about real qualities and abilities.

I do find my field absolutely fascinating, and really important - and maybe I can magic up a research fellowship from somewhere as the centenary of the war approaches, which should mean lots of interest... or knowing academia's propensity for tying things up early on, I may already be too late!

Let's make a pact to begin a quest for the code for the cloaking device (can you tell my children have been watching Merlin?!) and we will let each other know of any discoveries.

And I think Auntie's right about trying to identify those things we can put up with, and those we can't, those things we definitely want to include and those we must run a mile from. I tried the test on DillyTante's blog post about personality types, as it suggests suitable professions as a spin off: it decided I should either be a scientist, engineer or librarian!

Interesting to hear this conversation from the perspective of academia. I worked in NGOs for a decade, came back to do a Masters, and now, post-child, I'm doing a low-level academic admin job and a part-time PhD. I do a bit of teaching as well - don't mind the classroom bit, but dislike the prep. I don't really think I want to be an academic, and given the hours academic have to put in, it only makes sense to do it you're passionate. So why keep doing a PhD? I'm a third of the way in (in terms of time rather than output!) so why keep putting in the time and money if it's taking me in the wrong direction?

For geographical reasons, and because the voluntary sector is pretty cash-strapped, it's hard to go back to working in NGOs. But if I stopped investing time and money in the PhD, I could spend those resources relentlessly volunteering and pushing my way back into NGOs. I don't know what's for the best, really.

NicknameTaken that sounds a difficult thing for you to ponder... I am certainly doing the PhD for personal satisfaction as much as for the prospects it may or may not open up ... And it's such hard work at times that I think that is what keeps me going. But I'm also aware it's a huge privilege to be delving into a topic I love, making connections and discovering things no one else has looked at, and that I get to do this as my 'job,' all day, every day, for three years. I suspect that if I did get a job in academia, I'd look back and think ,'Blimey, that was cushy - essentially three years to write a book.' So I'm making the most of it, and hope you get a good deal of satisfaction from yours too ... Does the low level admin job you mention make you appreciate the PhD in any way? I hope you find the right course of action. We're all bumbling along, really! Good luck.

Thanks! Yes, the low level admin job makes me appreciate the PhD, but to some extent it's a pride thing - it would be painful to think that booking rooms for meetings etc is all I'm deemed capable of. But I do know what you mean about the thrill of making connections nobody else has (with the haunting fear that it might be in an article somewhere that I just haven't seen). I'm not going to drop out immediately, at any rate. Will at least wait till the end of the summer (I'm down to do a two-week summer school, which should clarify a few things in my mind).

It's always a relief when other people confess to career confusion too!

I've had a convoluted career history from science to management to consultancy - all of which I've enjoyed at the time, but grew out of. I'm now working in a role which I absolutely love, and which does feel like a vocation. But I suppose the thing I've noticed (particularly with my current role) is that I'd never have sat down and planned to do a particular job. In fact if I'd sat with a list of possibilities I'd have ruled myself out of them thiinking that I didn't have the qualifications / skills / experience, or thinking that I'd not even like to do it.

I suppose what I'm saying is that for me, the intersting opportunites came through exploring things that I enjoyed doing - either as personal development, or creative learning opportunites (not specifically job related). It's been an unplanned (and unplannable) journey gathering an assortment of skills until suddeny I find myself using them in a role that I didn't even know existed.

This thread is more reassuring to me than might seem reasonable; partly because I'm several years younger than the OP so there's "hope for me yet". I'm fighting myself to write up a Masters thesis out of what was supposed to be a PhD project but has dragged on too long. Thought academia was for me all along (wanted to be "a scientist" age 7 and never really lost that through various permutations) but seem to be failing the real entrance point at the moment.

For me teaching may turn out to be the right option, because my thirst for knowledge has always been wanting to understand things AND help other people understand them. But to do school teaching after the twists and turns I've pursued so far might seem a little odd, and I know I'm not one for motivating kids who're not interested.

Right now though it is a case of get the wretched full draft finished and then hurry up and submit so I can move on. Then I can start to explore things properly. Which includes talking to some people about another research proposal and trying to get funding if they think it is viable; but maybe I'll go and chat to some private school science departments too and see if I can observe some lessons or something.

Part of me would however like to work out if I can earn money through music - but that's the one thing I've not got any tertiary qualifications in ...

I'd be very happy to correspond with anyone who is interested in trying some mutual mentoring though!

OooH Like this, I stubbled on what I love doing, when I felt school at 16 I struggled academically but I wanted MONEY, I went to college, did business studies, first BTEC then National half way through the national I just new sales was for me, but I also loved biology and my Mum was a madwitch (midwife) I loved to pick her brains and learn stuff, I also kept the science stuff up, just because I enjoyed it, in our last year my Marketing tutor annonouced to the entire class I had a flair for sales/marketing I had never been single out in my life before, it was a great moment because I was thinking I enjoyed this already so to be told something you enjoy you are actually good at was amazing.
the tutor mentored me and realised I liked the medical/science stuff and there in was a problem...I was 18 and these type of jobs need someone who has some sort of qualification, pref a medical/science degree (I had been accepted to do economics and politics at Aston non conditional but realistically I would never have cut the mustard either academically or for my chosen field of medical sales)
long story short, I did nurse training as a means to an end, I found I loved it, I got to talk to interesting people of all ages, I love to talk and listen, my science side was used, I found I like to care, I had come into nursing without any preconcieved Ideas, I excepted to find it hard as it wasn't in the first instance what I wanted to do and my Mum was a nurse and midwife, but it was hard work, but good hard work.
interestingly 22 years after starting as a student nurse out of 22 in my set only 5 of us still nurse, I think that is a sad satistic, how many of us still on the coal face 3, one in theatre,one a ward nurse 2 days a week, one a midwife in out patients, the other 2 a district nurse in NZ, me Occy Health.
but I love my job, I like finding solutions, helping people, sometimes it is just serenditity which happens, don't give up my Dad had 4 careers he loved in his working life :)

Nicknametaken - I have a sneaking suspicion my PhD will close as many doors as it opens (though my supervisor insists it only closes doors I wouldn't have wanted to go through). I'm determined to finish because I'm far too far in to quit. It's cost me a lot, financially & professionally, so when it's done, i WILL be that person with Dr on bloody everything. The satisfaction of having that might well be the biggest thing I get from the whole exercise...

I've also had the job booking meeting rooms & I bloody hated it. The trouble is, I find it so much easier to list what I don't want from a job than what I do.

Pythonesque - "get the wretched full draft finished and then hurry up and submit so I can move on" pretty much sums up my life at the moment.

Can anyone think of a way we could organise our mutual mentoring? It would be nice if Mumsnet could be a positive thing, helping me to achieve something, rather than the thing I waste time on when I can't be arsed to do anything!

Sorry,as things had gone quiet for a few days, I've missed the last few messages. There are a couple of us who have expressed interest in the 'mutual mentoring' thing. Isitwine, I've been racking my brain to try and think of a way to organise it. ... One idea might be to start a blog on which we could put up ideas and thoughts - I believe you can keep blogs private i.e. by invitation only, if we prefer that. That might be an easy forum on which to post questions/ideas/comments.

I am so with you and Pythonesque now on 'get the wretched thing finished' ...

I really appreciated venusandmars' comment that actually, sometimes you can't plan for these things, and that pursuing things you love and are interested in for personal reasons can lead you somewhere rewarding that you didn't know existed!