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Made redundant and 36 weeks pregnant

33 replies

Jaynex · 09/02/2006 11:39

I just left the hospital yesterday after being given the date of my c-section and hadn't even had the time to phone anyone with the exciting news when my work got in there first with the news that I have been made redundant and need to go in for a meeting on Friday (tomorrow) to discuss the ins and outs of it all.

A letter arrived this morning laying out the formalities of the meeting.
It states that I can have a companion in with me for support who is either:

  • a full-time official employed by a trade union; or
  • a lay trade union official who has been certified in writing as having experience of, or training in, acting as a worker's companion at grievance, disciplinary or redundancy hearings.

I have just phoned them up to point me in the right direction to find such a person and they said that I didn't have a trade union to belong to and that was just something that had to be put in the letter just in case I happened to be part of some secret bloomin' union or some such nonesense.

Not really sure how I feel about it all as I thought I'd planned my maternity leave and everything was in order. Now I'm a little bit jittery about the future. It'll be a bit difficult looking for a new job while nursing a baby. I also have a 16 month old in tow.

I'd only just got my maternity letter yesterday morning stating my back to work date and weekly payments.

Just when I thought I had my life planned out and organised I get this little surprise.

I've worked there 15 years and even though I know they would never admit it and have themselves fully covered I just know that these 2 close together pregnancies have not been looked upon favourably.

OP posts:
compo · 09/02/2006 11:49

I would go to the CAB or ring the Maternity Alliance. I'm pretty sure they can't do this.

compo · 09/02/2006 11:50

maternity allaince

tissy · 09/02/2006 11:52

are other people being made redundant as well?

Passionflower · 09/02/2006 12:19

I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that there is a presumption in your favour if you are dismissed/made redundant while pregnant.

Jaynex · 09/02/2006 12:26

Yes tissy, I believe there a re other redundancies.
I've been asked not to go into work and I haven't heard from anyone else about who else has gone.
I work for a big organisation and I'm sure they will be well covered and make sure that it doesn't look like I've been picked on for my pregnancies.
I've phoned up a union that would cover my job but I won't be able to speak to anyone until 4.30pm.
My meeting is at 9.30 tomorrow.
I'm thinking about postponing it so that I can take someone with me even though I obvioulsy would like to get the details of what they may be offering me.

OP posts:
katyp · 09/02/2006 12:27

Definitely talk to the Maternity Alliance - they are very helpful and their website has lots of useful information. From what I remember, unless the law has changed in the last 3 years, if you are on maternity leave your employers have to consider you first before everyone else when looking to see if they can offer you an alternative job (assuming your current role is genuinely being made redundant.) Do take someone else to the meeting tomorrow - as far as I know you could just take a friend or work colleague. they don't have to be a union official. Can you afford to consult a solicitor?

clerkKent · 09/02/2006 12:27

Have you told them you are pg? If so, they are taking a big risk in making you redundant. If not, tell them now. Our policy is to pay maternity leave in full if we have a redundancy in these circumstances.

You are normally allowed to take a colleague from work into this sort of meeting, if you want moral support or a witness. Again, they would be taking a risk if they refused to allow it.

Enid · 09/02/2006 12:32

dont let working for a big organisation fool you.

A friend of mine has taken TWO of her former employers to court over unfair pregnancy dismissal and they are two VERY big retail companies.

tissy · 09/02/2006 12:36

cK, 36 weeks, think it may be visible...

batters · 09/02/2006 12:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

katzg · 09/02/2006 12:45

found this don't know if it helps at all

What are my rights if I get made redundant while I'm pregnant? What effect does this have on my redundancy pay?
Kalender

Hi Kalender

The basic position in relation to redundancy during pregnancy is the same as redundancy at any other time. You are entitled to be fully consulted about the redundancy and selection procedures, to be fairly selected on the basis of fair and objective criteria, and to be offered alternative employment if possible.

If you are made redundant whilst you are pregnant and the reason for your selection as a candidate for redundancy was your pregnancy, then any dismissal will be automatically unfair. In this scenario, you would be able to bring a claim of unfair dismissal for the loss you suffer as a result of the dismissal.

If the situation is merely that as a result of objective and fair selection criteria you have been made redundant - and the procedure followed in doing so has been fair - then it is likely that the dismissal will be fair. You would then be entitled to a redundancy payment in the same way as other employees.

You may have a contractual redundancy scheme, and if so, it should be followed. If not, then the statutory scheme will apply. In order to qualify for this you must have two years' continuous service with your employer. The redundancy payment would then be calculated by taking your weekly earnings, capped at #240 multiplied by the number of years' service you have, multiplied by one (if you are between the ages of 22 and 41). The weekly earnings used in the calculation should be the pay that you received before going on maternity leave, not the sum of maternity pay you were receiving.

Rojak · 09/02/2006 12:51

A similar thing happened to me while I was on maternity leave.

You may find if it's a large organisation that they are restructuring and have made various positions redundant. You may find then that they'll produce the new structure and a similar job to yours may be on it and you may have to go through an interview for it or they may offer you a redundancy package.

I'd certainly go for the meeting to hear what they have to say, you don't have to agree to anything in the meeting and they should be flexible enough to allow you to bring a colleague with you.

uwila · 09/02/2006 12:52

Also, remember that if you are off sick for a pregnancy related reason, they can force you to start your maternity leave immediately. So don't pull a sickie to avoid the meeting. Get them to pay out redundancy and then start maternity leave... unless you've already started it of course.

DominiConnor · 09/02/2006 13:21

Request a delay for proper representation.
Do this in email not by voice. Do it now.
Copy it to your ex-manager,blind copy to at least one other senior person in the firm.
Click the button in your system that says "request a read receipt" as well as the one that says request delivery receipt.

You want a record for if they deny it.
I'm a bit technical, so if you need help with that, I'm [email protected]

If you are really lucky they will deny you representation, and poke yet another hole in their own case.

As someone who is cynical about unions in general I have to say that this is the sort of stuff they usually do well. This is what unions are for.
Not sure if they will help a non member, if so then I'd regard paying fees as a worthwhile investment.
Do not sign anything without advice.
Even verbal agreement might hurt, at the very least it makes you look like a soft touch.

They can make you redundant.
Perfectly legal.

That being said, as Passionflower says, they are going to have a hard time showing that this was just coincidence, not least because it probably isn't.

Did they have conusltations. Sure they're a sham in most firms, but a big firm losing people ought really to have played the charade. Not doing so helps your case.

The meeting itelf is a sham, thry have legal obligations to pretend it's a "discussion" but it ain't.
As for working for a big organisation, that often means that they haven't bothered to talk to a lawyer, becuase they cost maney, and this is a cost reduction exercise.
I'd bet money the political dynamic is that the fianance director (failed accountant) put pressure on the HR director to "think about the business", and not to worry about pedantic details.
Fact is that as a preganant woman, you're an obvious target for cost saving.

I'm not a lawyer, but am a pimp, who's worked at board level and I would take a lot of persuading to sack a pregnant woman, both ethically and financially.

To me this is a negotiating situation, not a take what you're given one.
As I say, I regard their decision as appalling from an ethical position, and as my former CEO put it
"money is the best revenge" when we took nno-trivial money from someone who had screwed us around.
If they think that pregnant women are easy prey they will do this crap again. Being a bloke I can't make much of a call to sisterhood, but bear it in mind.

Your relationship with them is over, gone.
Whatever goodwill you think you built up turns out not to be worth anything to them, so don't value it yourself either. They are your past, money is your future.

They may want to take away your maternity leave, and other benefits. Private healthcare ?
As it's #2, you know this is going to be an expensive time, and you're realistic about getting another job.

Their decision is going to cost you a lot of money just when you need it most.

Let them put whatever offer in front of you, but unless it's really generous (and statutory is not generous), then pause for at least a minute ,with as little expression as you can imagine.
Calm is good here. Much more scary than a rant.

Depending on your personal style, I'd be tempted to break the long pause with "Is that it ?", maybe with a sarcastic "oh dear..."

Then use the following arguments and suggest they go away and rethink the package.
Make sure they understand very clearly that they've started a fight, and the law favours you.

This case will cost a lot for them to defend at a tribunal. They will not be able to recover the legal costs, and you can get legal aid and the union. They need to know that you know.
Big firms do not have cheap lawyers, very quickly their fees will go past several months pay, even if you lose.

Unfair dismissal is capped, but not in cases of race or sexual discrimination. Mention this.

Point out your medical condition, and say they you don't believe for one second that they chose you or the timing accidentally. But you need to convey that this actually will act in your favour when not if they go to court.

My board level experience is that the larger firm, the more they will want to settle out of court. The amount you will get is a simple function of how likely you are to go.

You say they're a big firm. Good.
That means you ask. "How will this look in the papers" ?. Name some high up person, and ask "what will Richard Bigswing say to you when he reads this in the papers ?"
Have you told him you're sacking a pregnant woman ?
If no, then say
"ohh dearrrr....."
If yes, ask what he said. They'll probably refuse to say. If so then say "that bad eh ?" or else
"I wonder why he's not prepared to say it himself, left you to do his dirty work".

If she says that Big Richard is quite happy that no discrimination has taken place, the obvious response is
"so he'll say that in court, under oath ?"
This is a potent threat, since it's rare that getting a top guy of your firm into court is good for your career. The henchmen who occupy management niches between you and him will already fear for their position, and you will rattle a lot of cages. (say) 6 months salary, plus maternity leave, and continuation of benefits like healthcare is what you might well accept.
Of course you don't ask for that because they'll try to whittle you down, but let them offer.

You need to get your retaliation started now. There are tight timesecales for making such a claim, and once #2 is born you will have other priorities. The cynic in me thinks that they've made that calculation as well.

Play with the words, but the tone of undermining the person responsible for this will help.

For the best settlement, you need people to feel it is in their best personal interests to make this go away.

You will recall that the newspapers have carried several stories of this form. Google will find a few. Feel free to quote from them.

Wonder out aloud "I wonder how many other women are being lost, when this case goes public, all sorts of things may come out".
It's impossible to do redundancy perfectly fairly, so that's a safe bet.

Also at this stage you may choose to make a subject access request under the Data Protection act. You have the right to see computer and "structured" printed data on you. Big firm almost certainly has files on you.
Say "of course you've nothing to hide have you ?"

This sounds a bit aggressive, and of course I can't know your personality, but is a necessary course of action.

Passionflower · 09/02/2006 13:45

Agree with Dominiconnor. That is the way to play it I reckon.

I moved jobs and found I was pregnant at the same time I accepted the offer (It was a largish private bank and fund co.) Announced I was pregnant just after completing probation and they weren't at all happy but I made a some of the noises as DConnor suggested and it does work.

funnygirl · 09/02/2006 14:25

I was told 10 days after giving birth that my contract was to be transferred and the new company didnt want me and that I would have to fight for my job and entitlements. On discussion with my new employer they had no such qualms and kept me on maternity until finally making me redundant. Pregnant women and women on maternity leave have a lot of rights. Citizens Advice and ACAS helped me but most of it was as Dominiconnor says. Good Luck

Jaynex · 09/02/2006 20:09

Thanks so much for all of these wonderful messages of support and advice.
I have been on the phone and net all day following up on some of your leads and suggestions.
I feel a lot more confident about my meeting and will keep you informed of how it goes for me.
Thanks again,
Jayne xxxxxxx

OP posts:
madchad · 09/02/2006 21:57

Janex,
I am thinking of you, you poor thing.

I'd support Domininconnor's clever strategy this is definitely the way to play it. They are expecting you to lie down and play dead if you'll pardon the phrase. I'd suggest throwing in that of course you'll have to run everything past a solicitor.

DH has gone through 'redundancy' recently (as they called it-it was actually unfair dismissal as they hadn't followed procedures)
Here are a few things that helped him keep his sanity. There was no way he could have stayed on, so redundancy it was.

  1. We looked up lots of websites, including ACAS, some Gov. Dept, all of which had excellent advice and clear descriptions of what must happen. As soon as it was clear that he knew what should happen, they changed their tune, and he ended with a good package. They paid for his initial legal consult (about £250), and as they drafted the Compromise agreement really badly, also the extra legal work.
  2. I believe that you can delay the consultation meeting by up to 7 days, but gather that you'll go ahead in the morning.Listen hard and say little in response beyond dominiconnor's advice, take notes if possible.
  3. Keep a record of that meeting and every related conversation/email/event no matter how trivial or seemingly informal. You may need it in the future, and it takes a lot of stress away. If you are going to take a package, and large organisations have deep pockets, make sure you get as much as you can, Sexual discrimination cases get hige pay outs, but dismissal cases do have limits.
  4. If taking a package, see it as Mat Pay with the pay up front. Do not accept their first offer, or even their second if you can help it, they'll have factored that in no doubt. You'll have a notice period, statutory redundancy, holiday pay (accrues during the notice period) and they should factor in your Mat leave period and the value of benefits like pension.

Sorry that this is rather long winded. I know nothing specifically about the Mat. aspect except that I am sure that your rights are even stronger. Lastly, make sure that the compromise agreement is worded to avoid tax on the first £30k, otherwise what you get may be taxable. It's all in the wording I believe.
Knowledge is power!
Good luck in the morning.

Jaynex · 09/02/2006 22:13

Oh my goodness, I am so over whelmed by all these messages of support and excellent advice.
So much has happened in 26 hours.
I have been told that the person who I am having the meeting with is on holiday next week and so I have to attend tomorrow or wait until the week after next.
I could easily have my baby by then so I feel I can't wait for a postponment.
It's a bit silly really as in my letter it states that if I or my companion can't make the meeting time then we have to rearrange the meeting for a time that is convenient for all as long as it falls within 5 working days!
Basically I got the call yesterday, got told my meeting is for tomorrow and I don't have much flexibility for it to be rearranged.
Thanks again for all the advice. Especially DominiConnor.
I've learned so much in such a short amount of time.
What an amazing place this is.
Jayne x

OP posts:
ChicPea · 09/02/2006 22:34

Jaynex, I hope you are able to read this tonight. When making somebody redundant, if there are 10 employees or more, the company must announce that they are making redundancies and then give the proposed employees three months to prepare for the consultation where the employer discusses alternatives (if there are any) and the employee can ask questions AND put forward an ideas about saving his/her job or state another department they would like to move to. If making less than 10 people redundant, an announcement must be made to all employees, a criteria published, ie who has given the least number of days service, had the most sickness, has a discliplinary record, etc, and those provisionally chosen given 5 days to prepare for the consultation meeting. In that meeting, the same applies, the employee asks questions, including if there are any other positions available, can put forward any ideas on saving his/her own job and the employer can discuss alternatives. It would be a good idea to take a work colleague or a union rep so that you have a witness. A decision to make you redundant is not made until the consultation has taken place and the employer has heard your suggestions on how you can adapt to another role or justify keeping your current job open. You have the right to appeal.

They must give you five days notice to prepare for the consultation. If not, they are not following the correct procedure and you can cite that when/if you go to an industrial tribunal. If you are happy to go tomorrow, then do, but it will be in your interest to do so and not in theirs. Do take a witness. Good luck.

ChicPea · 09/02/2006 22:41

regarding the criteria, I meant to say number of years service.

Having just re-read your last post Jaynex, I find it incredible that they called you yesterday and the meeting is tomorrow. Does this company have an established Human Resources Dept? Don't be nervous, make notes. Take a list of questions to ask including:

How many people are you making redundant?
Am I still employed?
Is my job going to be done by somebody else?
What is the selection criteria for making the redundancies?
Am I now redundant? (Ask this question because if they say yes, this really is bad practice as the decision must not be made until after the meeting!!)

TAKE A WITNESS!!!

Good luck!

nightowl · 09/02/2006 23:08

im trying to remember now but i took my former employers to a tribunal for sex discrimination. (i was made redundant on mat leave and my job given to the girl i trained from an office junior, who had no children). many times at tribunal my former employers were asked about the selection process/criteria and where was their written copy, comparisons etc?. that one thing seems to stand out in my memory. they had no copy/policy or course and were stupid enough to admit there never was one. i did win in the end. sorry this is happening to you, its a horrible time.

Jaynex · 10/02/2006 09:24

Thanks chicpea and nightowl.
I have postponed this morning's meeting but I will have to go in some time today as the person who is conducting these meetings is away next week. The letter (yes I got it on Wednesday) states that if the time of the meeting is not convenient for myself or a companion then we can re-schedule it within 5 working days. That's not possible as he will be away.
I don't want to risk leaving it until the week after next as I am concerned I may have my baby by then and my availability will be restricted.
I haven't found anyone who fits their criteria who can come in with me but there will be someone from HR there.
I am feeling less daunted and have learned so much in the last day or so and really appreciate all the words of advice and support from this forum.
I work in a very male environment, the only other girl in my department of approx 50 colleagues is very young.
I know of 2 other older women with families in other departments who are in the same situation as me.
I'm sure they've covered themselves legally but it seems that those who have been there the longest who are not as flexible as the new young workers are on the list.
I will keep you all posted.
Thanks again,
Jayne x

OP posts:
DominiConnor · 10/02/2006 10:21

I am a bit worried that you are going in without a representative.
With all due respect this is not something to do on your own, please really try not to sign anything. Don't suppose you've got a friend with al ittle time, just to witness what they say ?

Sorry for the emphasis but "HR IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE* Not one bit. They are the enemy in this context. As a friend of mine put it who is a HR director os a household name firm, her job is "protecting management from the staff".

Of course there is HR there, they are the equivalent of bouncers.

I haven't found anyone who fits their criteria >who can come in with me
I'm not aware of any criteria they may impose. I'm pretty sure you can bring anyone.

Don't suppose this is in the City is it ?

I work in a very male environment, the only other >girl in my department of approx 50 colleagues is >very young.
Right, this stinks as well.
Lots of mostly male environments out there, but isn't it a bit unlikely then that two pregnant women get the chop ?

I'm sure they've covered themselves legally
I'm not. They will say this, and they will state as a "fact" that you don't at this meeting. It's far from certain.

uwila · 10/02/2006 10:24

Good luck today!

What tossers.