Where do I stand Re: time off for sick child

[coxy3005]

I've worked at my company for 7 years. I returned to work in October after 9 months mat leave and some holiday ontop for my first child. Before I went on mat leave my boss and I had a good working relationship I would go so far as to say we were friends, she was always texting me when I was on mat leave to see how I was, anyway, since I've been back my daughter has been poorly alot, with chest and ear infections mainly which have resulted in antibiotics. Unfortunatley when this happens the nursery won't take her until she has been on them 24 hours which means I have to take time off work. I have no other means of childcare apart from my husband who has been unable to help much as he had started a new job which has meant shifts and travelling. I knew that she had a problem with me having time off (unpaid by the way) but she has never actually said anything it was just a vibe I got from her, anyway I got called into a meeting last week with her and HR with NO warning to discuss why I have had so much time off and how I can ensure that it doesn't happen so much going forward :/ I am now basically paranoid that they are trying to get rid of me as she behaves totally different with me to other people in the office and never talks to me.

We have also had redundancies elsewhere in the company but have been told that they are not planning to make cuts in our departments but I just don't beleive them!

Has this happened to anyone else? What are my rights? I am feeling bullied
:(

Hi,
Sounds like your boss is making your life really difficult.
There's some useful info here.
Do you have a union rep? If so, I'd make sure you take them to any future meetings with HR.
Is there any way you can try to talk informally to your boss? Especially if you used to consider her a friend? Maybe have a coffee with her and try to suss out what the problem is?
One way or another, your employer can't really ask you to ensure that your child is sick less in the future! They need to understand that it's beyond your control.

You are entitled to unpaid time off to look after a sick child and arrange alternative childcare.

Most employers would expect you to have other arrangements in place after that though.

Do you have friends/family that can help out? It horrible to be worrying about work as well as a sick child.

The only good thing is that hopefully your DC is building up a healthy immune systerm.

How much time off have you had since October because of your daughter's illness? Indeed your employer can't ask you to ensure that your daughter is ill less and that isn't what they are asking. But they are entitled to ask you what you can do to minimise time off in future, your childcare arrangements are not their concern.

You say your husband can't help more but why is your job less important than his? Do you have any family who can help out? Would a childminder be a better form of care for you at this point?

I think you need to come up with some compromise to show that this is not your fault but you are trying your best to deal with it. Do you have any possibility of being able to do some work from home, work late, come in on a day off, etc to make up for time missed. You could also point out to them that children do pick up a lot of bugs when they first start childcare and this should lessen now that your dd is getting used to nursery and also that Spring is coming (although not today!).

You are entitled to unpaid emergency dependents leave which would cover illness for a couple of days or do, after which you'd be expected to make alternative arrangements.

All fine, but if your employers knows they are taking all the burden for your child's illnesses and your husband's employer are not having any inconvenience, I think it's fair enough for them to be addressing this with you.

Your husband has exactly the same rights you do and he needs to take 50% of the burden. Ok if he's actually away travelling at the time your daughter is ill he can't do it but otherwise he can and should.

This is one if the things that puts some employers off employing women; it's so common for a couple to decide that man's job is 'too important' to take any time off and that the woman's employer should take all the burden.

Otherwise perhaps you need to review your childcare arrangements or consider using an emergency nanny some of the time.

If you have worked for your company for more than 1 year then you do have the right to 13 weeks unpaid parental leave before your child is five.
link here

However it is not unreasonable for your work to want to discuss this with you if it is happening frequently and is becoming hard for them to manage.

p.s. I second finding a childminder. Mine will take DD for all but the most infectious illness and has no problem taking her with a temperature/minor infection etc.

Parental leave is entirely different, it's taken in blocks, planned in advance, and can be postponed by the employer. It's not for emergencies/illness.

Yes sorry flowery is right. You might be better reading this leaflet instead to see what your rights are.

It's really interesting what you say about dads taking 50% of the burden.

My DH and I both work for the NHS. He is a surgeon and I am in one of the allied health professions (physic, OT that sort of thing).

When our kids are ill, it's usually me that takes time off (though not exclusively - he does some of it too). For us this is a rational decision based on the fact that him not turning up at work means an operating list will be cancelled. This has huge implications, not just financially but also for the poor patient who's probably been nil by mouth since the previous night and worked up into a state at having an operation they might have waited months for. If he's on-call then his colleagues have to provide cover.

On the other hand, if I don't go in, my appointments are easily re-arranged at it's me that has to do that. I have no on-call commitment so my colleagues are not inconvenienced by my absence.

As I said, we both work for the NHS though we work for different trusts. In my last job, my boss wasn't sympathetic to this logical thinking at all though my current boss can see it's quite sensible when you look at the bigger picture.

The other thing is that my DH is not contactable when he's in theatre (you wouldn't want that if you were his patient, would you?). Should he be brought out of an operation to collect a child who looks 'a bit under the weather' at school? My DD has been sent home twice since October for this reason and both times I've taken her home and she's been bouncing around the house within half an hour. Of course it's me that's gone to get her and there's nothing I can do about the fact I think her teacher is hypersensitive.

What's your opinion? Genuinely interested to get other views.

(I ought to add that we have no other family except quite reluctant grandparents who are usually out in the day and don't carry a mobile phone)

Well it's about being sensible isn't it really. In your case the NHS takes the burden regardless

But I can see that at least some of the time it really wouldn't make sense for your DH to take the time off, as a surgeon, and if it's easy for you to do so with no inconvenience to others, again that makes sense.

But there is a bit of a general trend which I see on here a lot, women come on asking about their rights to take time off for a sick child, and worrying that their employer is getting funny about it, but when asked about how much of the burden their partner/the child's father takes, they say his job is 'too important' and he 'can't take time off'.

In your case sixties your employer isn't funny about it, your job isn't at risk and you have a fairly extreme set of circumstances in that your DH is in a job where it would be incredibly difficult and you are in a job where it seems pretty easy.

But a lot of these women are not in the same position, and many seem to take the view that because they are the woman, or because they earn less, therefore it's down to them to sort out all the family emergency stuff. I don't think they all have DHs with jobs that involve life and death and by the fact that they are posting, they don't have jobs that allow limitless flexibility themselves.

Re who takes time off:

I earn a lot less than DH. His wage keeps a roof over our head and food on the table. His job therefore is more important than mine, which pays for holidays and treats.

However when we were earning similar amounts, we both took the hit as the jobs were equally important.

I do sympathise - needing time off to look after a poorly child is a nightmare and I am lucky in that DH has grown up into a healthy boy. But when I first returned to work (when he was 7 months old) he had a number of ear infections, but the straw that broke the camel's back was a serious tummy upset which lasted a week. DH and I worked for the same employer at that time and they kicked up such a fuss about us taking time off to look after him (we were trying to share the burden but obviously it meant one of us was always missing!) that I ended up handing my notice in and becoming a SAHM for a couple of years.

It's all very well saying that we are only expected to take enough time to arrange alternative care but it's not that easy to do in reality, is it?

DH and I used to argue about this all the time ie, whose job was more important! Neither of us wanted to take time off. In our case I think it was equal.

I wonder if there would be any mileage in asking both employers to communicate about this, as they obviously don't know when their employee's partner is taking time off and they are not losing out.

OlympicEater in your employer's eyes, your job is equally as important. Their view would be just because your job doesn't happen to command as high a salary as his, why should they bear the burden of your family emergencies and your DH's employer not have to.

And yes I agree the 'expected to make alternative arrangements' thing isn't always as easy as that in reality, finding someone else to look after your child with chicken pox or whatever.

I think in circumstances like that, if an employer got the sense that you were genuinely doing your best to find alternatives, and sharing with your partner, most would be reasonably sympathetic and allow staff to use annual leave or take a bit more unpaid leave than they might be strictly entitled to. It's all give and take really.

If an employer finds someone taking the entire duration of children's illnesses off each time, with no signs of any efforts to sort anything else out or take turns with a partner, they might get fed up and take steps to make that known.

Flowery I completely agree, but in terms of, if one of us were to lose our job over it then better it be me than him.

Thanks for all your replies, seems I have opened a can of worms lol! Dh started a new job in October (1 week after I returned to work) and so was on a 3 month probation period and we couldn't run the risk of him taking time off so early on. He is also paid more than me so for him to take an unpaid day when we still have to pay the nursery makes it worse. Now before you all start I know that none of this is my employers problem and dh will be taking 50% of the responsibility now which will help. The problem I have is the way I am being treated and the way it has been dealt. I cannot see where the burden lies as I have only had 1 day off at a time, none of my colleagues touch my work while I'm not in, only once did one have to send an email on my behalf, took all of 5 mins! I deal with everything else when i come back and work through lunch etc. I take pride in my work and have done for 7 years and for my boss to not even have thedecency to talk to me to say there was a problem is upsetting, now it's turned into a whole official thing which is on my personel file!

I suppose my worry is could I lose my job over it?

Yes, if it continues it could escalate into a disciplinary. I think this type of absence is becoming more of an issue in times of financial scrutiny. It's really irritating for the employer and colleagues. I think you need to get more robust childcare in place Op or get your DH to take a hit too. DHs job pays more than mine and is less 'safe' but mine is more important (imo) and we equally split this type of leave. It's not fair on the employer otherwise, why should they pay the price for your lack of emergency planning?

I agree with that sentiment but the wording is harsh.

Lack of emergency planning? Some people genuinely have nobody they can turn to and you have no idea why that might be.

If my parents were dead and couldn't be my "back up" would that be my lack of planning? Dont mean to pick a fight but that really bothered me.

I actually agree with that sentiment too which is why I try to make the burden on my employer as small as possible by finishing all my work in my own time as I said in my previous post so I say again, they really do not have too much of a financial burden as my time is unpaid but I am still doing my work!!! Not everyone has people they can turn to. I get compared to people at work cos they have parents, sisters, aunties etc. My parents live too far away and are full time carers for my disabled brother so dont judge others when you have no idea of there circumstances! Also I'm sure it's not legal to get rid of someone over childcare issues !?!

Firstly, you won't loose your job over days off for dependent leave (not immediately anyway, over a period of time, potentially you could).

As others have said, you can legally take a reasonable amount of time off to care for child or a dependent (to make arrangements etc). 'Reasonable' time off isn't defined!

An employer can however make you aware of an absence issue when/if it becomes a problem ('too' much time off in their opinion). They also could be meeting with you to discuss if they can help (well better employers would do this).

Secondly, the meeting you had with your boss and HR, was it documented? If so, ask for copies of the notes. It doesn't sound like a disciplinary as no notice was given (yes, your employer can speak to you in a 121 with HR present to discuss anything that concerns them without notice, it is only when things become more formal you would receive notice of any meeting).

So it sounds to me like they're making you aware of an 'issue' with your absence and asking what you plan to do. Like you say, you have limited options so they now know the score. You can only do what you can do, i.e. offer to work back the hours to minimise impact, work from home, share time off with DH etc etc. YES the conv goes on personnel file but they would need to do at least 2 disciplinaries to fairly dismiss you (and you'd need to have more than what they'd deem as reasonable time off...) so far you've had one informal meeting, so long way off from loosing job! Hope I'm making sense?

Remember, it is a legal right you have to this time off- albeit some shit companies and managers will make you feel bad about it.

Which brings us to your Boss and how she is treating you. Three options:

1. informally speak to her, coffee or in ask her for 10 min 121 etc and let her know how she is making you feel.
2. formal complaint via HR which should be fully investigated (they'd want evidence of bullying behaviour)
3. do nothing and look for another job

Personally, I would go with option 1. It's hard to put yourself out there and tell someone how they make you feel but honestly, most of the time the outcome far outweighs the initial dread. It sounds like your boss is inexperienced at dealing with this type of thing to get HR involved so early. Whether she is bullying you is questionable atm. She could be stepping back from your relationship because she's got "too" close in the first place (she is your boss afterall) or because of the absence, and she doesn't know how to handle; who knows. Either way she's handling it appallingly.

Her ignoring you is unacceptable; there is a potential 'bullying' tag here but you need to tell her about her behaviour rather than just say 'you're bullying me'.

I see this type of scenario a lot. Resolution is 99% communication with manager. It annoys me mgrs don't do the right thing.

You sound lovely OP. If you tell them you will give your utmost for your company but that they must give a little back too and cut you some slack, see what happens. If they don't understand, find a new employer who does

Shit that post is long
HTH

Oh and bunnyspoilers post is a lot tamer than what most bosses and companies think of dependents leave! It's fairly new (last 10 years) employment law so most companies see it as a burden.

Better ones use the flexibility to their advantage (ie can they work from home, make up hours, etc) which makes employee happy, hence the employer will work harder for loving charitable organisation who helped them in hour of need; leading to employee doing more and remaining loyal loveable employee!
Obvious really

I am actually sympathetic in my practice to dependents leave (and need to take it myself sometimes!), but this has to be 'to a point'. Because people are very naive if they think an employer will 'understand or be sympathetic to' their DHs job being 'more important' or 'bringing in more money' or 'less convenient for DH to take leave' or 'there is no family to help'- excuses I see time and again on Mumsnet and in real life. If there isn't family nearby there are the options of emergency childminders or babysitters (if illness lasts longer than a day or so- of course the first day you may need to take off; and if illness is contagious the employer should be sympathetic to longer unpaid leave which is shared between the parents). Simple as that. Op- I don't think this is a case of bullying, just your employer letting you know this is in danger of becoming a serious situation. Bigger employers usually have a clear leave policy, have they given you a copy so you are clear with your rights and responsibilities with regards to this?