Going back to work - what are your rights ?

[Pupuce]

I am currently on 6 months paid maternity leave (yes I have a generous employer). In January I am due back but was told today that my department had been restructured and that there was no job for me in it (a few other colleagues are in the same boat). I was encouraged to look for a job somewhere else in the company and to talk to HR.
How long do they have before they can let me go ? Does anyone know ??? I am going to look for another job in the company and oustide but wondered what my rights were.
THANKS!!!

Call the CAB and also Maternity Alliance who were both very helpful when I was made redundant, good luck

Thanks for the advice. What is CAB ? And do you have numbers or websites by any chance ?
I already have looked through the DTI website.

Pupuce,
CAB is the Citizens Advice Bureau. Last night I wrote you a really long reply on this one - but I obviously didn't send it properly! So here's a summary (I'm a bit tired tonight):

How long have you been with your employer? This will affect what rights you have.

Batters is right; maternity law protects you old job / your old terms and conditions BUT as a separate issue, a company CAN make people redundant if their job ceases to exist. It's very unprofesional of your company to advise you of this situation verbally, without backing it up with a letter. I advise that you speak to your HR dept asap and ask them to put everything in writing.

Ask HR to clarify if this is a redundancy situation and if so, what redundancy pay you would be entitled to if they are unable to offer you suitable alternative employment within the company. NB: In a redundancy situation the onus should be on them to find you alternative employment rather than the other way around. With such generous maternity leave, it's likely that your company would have a policy of enhanced redundancy pay.

I'll be pleased to give more advice, but have to dash now. Looking forward with interest to your rely. A.

Thanks Anibani.
I have not received a verbal notice. What I will get when I go back (Jan 2002) is a letter stating that in 3 months I will get an official notice. I will then have 6 months left in the company unless I find myself another job.
This company is very much into open resourcing (most jobs are advertised on tehir intranet) and it is up to me to apply to anyt job I am interested in. HR has told me to send me a resume (which I have) so that they can via their own networking see if they can find me a job (they are swamped so I pin little hope in them)... but what if I apply to 10 jobs via this system and I get turned down to every single one... how "obliged" are they to find me something ?
I am taking this opportunity to re-assess what I want to do in life but I am concerned about losing our sole income.
Thanks

Pupuce, I think that if your company are taking you back in a position similar to the one you had before you went on maternity leave, then they are fulfilling their legal obligation. If they will be giving you formal notice 3 months after your return & then 6 months to find work within the company, I am fairly sure that you will find that is all above board. Even more so, if there are other people who will be affected.
I'm no legal expert but did a bit of research on this subject for a friend of mine who is in a similar situation.
Good luck.

They are currently giving me no job just a desk and saying "find yourself a job in the company". I will get 9 months all together to come up with a job (and be hired for it) or I am out !

Hmmm, I thought that there was a legal obligation to provide you with a job at a similar level to the one you were on before you took maternity leave.
I would definitely check it out with someone Pupuce. You could probably have an initial consultation with a solicitor for a very small amount of money - just make sure you find one that is up to speed with employment law.

Pupuce, very sorry to hear about this unnecessary complication to the end of your maternity leave. I hope you manage to sort something out amicably with your employers, and am afraid I have no experience of this myself. You could possibly try this organisation: Maternity Alliance as I think they have a helpline for women returners.
Good luck.

Hi Pupuce,
Sorry I haven't been in touch sooner - a combination of work and 2 children has kept me rushed off my feet!
Unfortunately, your company is within its rights to give employees notice like this if there are genuine redundancies. It looks to me like the redundancies are completely separate to the fact that you're currently on maternity leave, and I have to (relucantly) say that your company is being unusually generous in the amount of notice that its' given you.

In brief terms, the way redundancies are defined is this: Either if your particular job no longer exists in the organisation due to a re-organisation etc, OR (if there are a number of people doing the same job), where the number of people needed to do those jobs reduces, thus making some of them redundant. In the latter situation, the company has to use a fair and reasonable way of selecting which employees should keep their jobs and which should be made redundant. (eg. length of service, performance history, skills, disciplinary records...) You have a right to ask what method of selection your employer has used, and if you think its' unfair you could object.

You also have a right to ask what redundancy package you would be entitled to if you do not find another job in the same company. If the package is significant, you might see this as an opportunity rather than a threat - after all, you've got 9 months to investigate the job market. What's to say you wouldn't find just as good a job (? better) elsewhere, plus the advantage of the redundancy package. Some HR departments will even agree that employees get the whole redundancy package if employees are lucky and find an outside job before the relevant time period is up.

With regard to your applications to internal vacancies, your HR department has a duty to put you forward for any suitable jobs. Why not go in to see someone from HR to spell out what sort of jobs / hours you would be prepared to consider. As I said before, in redundancy situations, the onus is on the company to seek suitable alternative employment for those people likely to be made redundant. Whilst your company is not totally 'obliged' to find you something (in some cases there will simply not be any vacancies that the redundnant employees are able or willing to do), there is nevertheless an obligation to consider you seriously for any internal vacancies that match the criteria that you set out to them. For example, if there was a vacancy that you were willing to accept and that you had the relevant skills / experience to do, your comnpany would be expected to offer you the job over an external candidate. If not, they would have to come up with a really good reason why they did not offer you the position. I hope this isn't sounding too unclear!

To summarise, I'd recommend you do the following:
Do see this as a potential opportunity (I've been in the same boat myself and redundancy turned out to be the best thing career-wise that had happened to me in years!!
Don't feel too negative about your company as it sounds like the notice given is much geater than the average company
Make an appointment to see HR. Think carefully beforehand what sort of jobs you would be willing to consider, and tell them at this session. Also ask for details of your proposed redundancy package and (if you don't think you've been selected fairly for redundancy) ask for the redundancy selection criteria.
Good Luck - let us know how you get on A.

Thanks Anabina. I definitely agree with you. I have already spoken to HR and have sent them a CV. There are loads of opportunity where I work but I am indeed considering getting out.
I didn't know I could ask what the package will be but I certainly will now ! At least when I get back.
I am only bitter at the fact that the news has basically ended my leave as I am on office e-mail 3 times a day and on the phone with colleagues, networking ! So I can't focus 100% on the kids anymore.... and it has changed my mood a bit !

Sorry Anibani for getting your nicknmae wrong...
I will definitely let you know what I choose to do next.
What did you move on to ? And Emmagee, what did you go on to do ? I am looking for inspiration (I have some ideas already).
Thanks

Hello again Pupuce,

Not to worry about my nickname!
This is the first time I've had a chance to log in since Saturday - my partner, bless him, decided he had to re-install the whole computer (whatever that means), so it was out of action for a few days.
I can understand you mood change - suddenly there's a bit of a black cloud hanging over you - the job you believed would be returning to upon your return is not as secure as you thought. My advice to you would be to remind yourself that you have another 9 months with the company (such a lot can happen in that time), and the wonderful opportunity that Maternity leave gives us to be at home full time with the children doesn't come along that often - so you really should make the most of it. Don't feel you have to be making all the contacts now - there's pleanty of time! It wouldn't do any harm, though, to ask HR now what the package would be - if it's very good, it could really put your mind at rest, and might even make you decide NOT to look for alternative work within your present company.

I've heard of lots of people who got made redundant and were shocked at the time but with hindsite realised that the redundancy was the catalyst to get them to apply for different / better jobs. Mine is just one example.

My partner, son and I were living in the Midlands. We had always planned to move back to the South of the country sometime, to my hometown, but what with both our jobs and the house we owned being in the Midlands it seemed like a mamouth task to find 2 new jobs and a new home. My job was OK, not great. The money was OK, not great - I didn't have sufficient motivation to get out there and find something better and in a better location.

Then I got made redundant. Of course I was shocked, upset, worried about the future... But it made me re-asess what I really wanted and made me put loads of energy into looking for new jobs - including jobs back in my hometown. My partner and I agreed that if I found a good job in the South, he would then start applying for jobs in the same area.

as luck / fate (?) would have it, I got offered two jobs within 2 months in my hometown. The one I chose was a blue chip company, on much better terms and conditions than my old job. It's the same general line of work, but a higher position (don't hate me for this but I work in HR). Soon after my partner found himself a job down here, and we bought a beautiful house. Fairy tale ending.

The moral of the story: Redundancy is not necessarily such a terrible thing if it happens to you.

Just a thought - if you're seriously considering a change of direction in career, you could ask HR whether they would be prepared to fund any relevant training for you.

Take care. A.

I have just asked HR that precise thing (training) earlier today.... we are obviously on the same wave length... but I was a bit cheeky and put a read receipt on my e-mails and notice that the CV I sent a week ago was only read today... it doesn't help me have a huge amount of confidence in my HR manager (sorry...).
I am now more and more considering leaving the company, I have asked what conditions I would get if I went part time but haven't asked what sort of package I'd get if they made me redundant.
What is usually the practice if you are told you might be made redundant and you quit.... could they offer you the package anyway ? Or should I just let things drag on and wait for them to let me go ?

Thanks for all the advice.

Hello Pupuce,
I've just read the thread on working full v/s part time and I should add that since returning from my maternity leave after my DD, I'm now working just 4 days per week and loving my 'day off'. It's a day in the week that I can feel like a REAL mum - and do the things normal mums do - have a chat with the other mums at my DS's school, take DD to swimming lessons, have other mums round for coffee, pick DS up from school. BLISS. I would do 3 days a week if it was possible with my job, but unfortunately it's not an option.

Be very careful about going part-time imediately after your return from maternity leave - as strictly speaking this would directly impact your redundancy package (which is based on a formula including your annual salary at the date of the redundancy, so (eg) halving your days could halve your redundancy package).

It's possible that you could negotiate with HR to take your old full time salary into account, but they would not be obliged to do this. Having said that, quite a few reputable companies would offer employees the full redundancy package if they quit before the redundancy date given. Just to re-iterate though - don't commit to anything before you have an agreement from HR in writing.

If you don't mind being cheeky you could calculate the salary that you would have earnt up to the date of the redundancy and ask HR to take this into account when looking at a potential package for you to leave straight away - after all, do they really want you at your desk for 9 months with no job to do, earning full salary? With this in mind, I'd probably advise playing down the part-time questions at this stage as you don't want to give them the impression that if they do nothing, your salary and redundancy package may reduce.

Thanks Anibani,

I have asked what the financial conditions would be for a part time but unless I actually took a part time job... I guess they would still have to offer me a "full time" redundancy package. Is that correct ?
While I have no real work I intend to be a full time employee.
I am quite confident I can find another job at my employer but the question is - do I want to ? It's 2 hours of commuting every day so I see my kids 2 x 30 minutes per day... seems very little to me !

Pupuce, when you get round to discussing packages with your employer, it may be worthwhile asking what package would be available if you left before the end of the nine month consultation and notice period - I suggest that you say something like "I assume the company would be willing to pay my termination package plus the remainder of the nine months gross pay if I find alternative employment or wish to leave for any other reason before the end of the nine months?" You could ask for more money for not going back at all at the end of the maternity period to reflect the fact that they won't have to find you a desk, phone, computer etc...

Another thing you may want to ask about, is working from home during the nine months - if you can have a computer link up to the office it may help to cut down on the commuting even if you only work from home a couple of days a week.

It is worth asking so that if you are thinking of a serious career change, it may help you decide one way or the other if you know when you could have the largest amount of cash in the bank.

As my mum always says, if you don't ask, you don't get!

Good luck!

I have to agree with Sis that it's worth asking about the working from home option. Pupuce, I really feel for you having to commute 2 hours every day! I don't think I could face such a long commute myself.

From what you've said, it certainly sounds like there could be a number of advantages in taking a redundancy package and looking for work closer to home (and possibly part-time). If you take into account the redundancy package and the money that you would otherwise be spending on commuting, you may find that your family could cope on quite a lot less than you were previously earning. The redundancy package is obviously key to this calculation, so I'd suggest that you really push your HR on this one - even if you ring them up and ask for the standard formula that they apply to redundancy packages - you can negotiate the additional amount for the 9 month notice period separately.

In answer to your question about the redundancy package, yes you would qualify for the 'full value' of the package as long as you don't change to a shorter working week. What I meant was don't jump into accepting a part-time contract - but of course you should explore all the options available to you.

Best of luck. A.

Thanks Anibani and Sis. I will follow your advice. I am a bit worried that if I ask what the redundancy package is, they might read into it... lets' get rid of her she clearly isn't interested.
But I will ask in January when I get back. I am not always comfortable with negociations but the way you say it makes me believe that

1. I have the right to ask (and to expect some negociation)
2. Others ask usually.

Thanks

Pupuce,
It is not just about rights - if you explain to HR that you want to make the right decision for all involved and you can only do this if you have all the information available before you consider the option.

I've read a lot of the advice you've given on other threads and it has always been sound and practical - and I'm sure you will come to the right decision for yourself in this one, but if you need any moral support, you know where to come.

All the best, enjoy the last few weeks of your maternity leave.

Thanks Sis, I'll definitely keep you posted. As I personnally enjoy reading others telling me if the advice I've suggested has or has not worked.

Hello everyone. I am back at my desk (can't say work as I have no work but a salary only!).
I have spoken to HR and they have told me to that if I find alternative employment outside they would be likely to pay me my salary until end Sept (when my employment would cease if I do not find a job internally) + my package... I thought that was good news... so I am working at updating my CV and will definitely look locally as I am fed up of commuting. Any tips on how to look for a management job in a smaller town (not London!) ? Where to find a list of employers for example ? I have been lucky up to now and never had to look for a job (always offered to me).

Thanks

Hello again Pupuce, small point on the basis of: "trust no-one", how about asking HR to put that in writing - perhaps saying that you need it for the bank or that your husband is very worried and won't be reassured until he sees it in black and white... I must say that your company is being very good about what they are willing to offer you - well done! and sorry, no advice on job hunting but good luck and keep us informed on your progress.

Hi everybody.
Does anybody know about self employed rights? maternity pay and so on..
I´m 14 week pregmant at the moment and need some advice.
THANKS!

Please can anyone help me with some advice. I find myself 29 weeks pregnant, at imminent threat of redundancy, and with an unemployed husband (who was unexpectedly made redundant in November).

In November I found out by chance that I had been one of three people in my department selected for redundancy; I guessed when my Head of Department called to arrange a meeting with me to tell me that I was "at risk". The Manager in question clumsily admitted over the ?phone that my job was being made redundant, and we scheduled a meeting, after which the clock would start ticking for the 4 week period of consultation, after which I would be redundant.

At this point I should mention a few points of clarification: My company is not intending to offer an enhanced redundancy package, but just the legal minimum, which would amout to a month in lieu of salary plus 2.5 weeks pay (I have worked for them for 2.5 years - 1 week's pay for each year). I can legally go on maternity leave from 16th Jan - 11 weeks before my due date of 3rd April. However, my company offers statutory min. maternity pay also - 90% for 6 weeks, and SMP for 12 weeks. Obviously we cannot afford to take this risk with my husband currently out of work.

To cut a long story short, the meeting has not yet happened, as the doctor signed me off with work related stress. The company is aware that I have also taken legal advice about this redundancy, and I understand from contacts that HR is trying to cover all their bases (ie to make sure they are "safe" in making a woman who is 6 months pregnant redundant!), but are insistent that they will continue with this action.

Whilst I have advised by a solicitor that the company can?t make me redundant because I?m pregnant, HR is obviously aware of this and says they are not making me redundant because I?m pregnant. I suspect I know the reason why I have been selected as one of so few, but as this is such a lengthy posting already, I won?t go into the selection criterion that I understand they have used. Suffice it to say, I believe it is unfair.

I guess what this all comes down to is? can they really do this to me? I have worked so hard for this company and have given them my flexibility, my dedication, my loyalty for 2 and a half years. To be told my job is redundant when I am so vulnerable seems inhuman; there is no way I could go out and get a job with the same salary, company car etc with another company at this stage, and carrying a big bump!

My other question is re. My maternity pay, such that it is? I have been told by the Benefits Agency over the phone that the company would still have to pay my SMP, even if they make me redundant, including the 6 weeks at 90%. This is apparently due to the fact that I had been employed for x (?)weeks at the 15th week of my pregnancy. Is this accurate? The woman I spoke to did not sound like an absolute authority and I?d like to get my facts straight on this one!

Sorry for such a long posting, but I?m really worried and I wondered if anyone out there has any personal experience with a situation similar to mine, of if there are any ?human? HR Managers out there who can shed any light on this!