Problems at work and with union.

[hadenoughcrap]

Hello helpful mumsnetters!

Work messed me around somewhat considerably last year. Having exhausted all informal routes, I did a grievance about a number of issues (health and safety at work, excessive work, flexible work, bullying by managers and consistent large underpayments of pay and benefits).

Not long after the grievance meeting, I was signed off with work stress. In Dec I received a letter stating that some backpay will be paid within the next few months. It fails to clarify exactly what allowance/s they will be paying me or when (an apology would also have been nice) and this letter did not mention any of the other issues discussed.

I sent in a following letter explaining that matters were not satisfactorily concluded as there were lots of outstanding queries affecting my health and safety and work/life balance and I requested to escalate this grievance (HR only join in when its Stage 2) plus I would like a breakdown of the money I can expect to receive and a date of payment. I honestly thought this was a reasonable request.

Had no reply but had another manager telephone me, unhappy about my grievance and attempted to bully me.

I managed to contact union and was told was they would have to seek permission from Regional Secretary to refer me to Legal. I was querying whether a repudiatory breach had occured, on the straw that broke the camels back basis. Reg Secretary has still not come back to me and no ET1 form has been submitted. How long is reasonable to wait? I am concerned about missing tribunal deadlines, if I do need to pursue that course of action.

I have received a formal letter not not mentioning my grievance but requesting my attendance at a meeting with HR to discuss the my possible return to work.

I don't see how I can return until most of the issues are resolved. Should I be worried about this meeting - is it the first step to getting rid of me or is this all normal?

Surely my outcome letter should have included all the issues in my original written grievance, as discussed at the meeting, even if the answers were not to my liking?

i am in a large union. I am unsure why I have bothered to pay my subscriptons. They did not help me to write my grievance, failed to accompany me to the grievance meeting (they said they would) and have been difficult to get hold of.

Rang my house insurance today and I am covered for legal fees. Should I see if I can get one to accompany me to this meeting or should I wait and see what is said first (and try to get my union to come - not that i'll hold my breath).

I am in way above my head and I apologise for rambling.

Thanks.

You don't need the union to draft up an ET claim and you can always withdraw a claim if your issue is subsequently resolved, so you should go ahead with this anyway if you are running out of time (3 months).

You need to do two things

1. Pick up the phone to HR, ask them if they are aware of grievance, and if so, why have they not responded; explain that resolving the grievance satisfactorarily is the key to reducing the stress for which you are signed off. They may not even be aware that the matter is unresolved, so you need to make it clear to them that the grievance has not been resolved yet, and they need to pull together a suitable formal response as the first stage in the process of adressing the stress you are under.

2. Call an HR employment specialist, explain you have insurance and ask for a preliminary meeting to discuss everything (the first meeting should be free). you need to find out if you have a case, and how strong it is. Make sure whoever you talk to is a specialist and not just a generalist.

Depending on timings you may need to send in a claim anyway.

Having a useless union is just bad luck and there is nothing you can do about that. You can't use it as a reason for delays in submitting claims. It is worth ringing the union again to see if they will pull their finger out and help you or not.

Many thanks, I will do all that today

One last thing, what exactly is the difference between lodging a claim at tribunal or county court. I saw online that if i have missed the 3 month deadline then certain issues can be lodged at court and the deadline is 6 months. I will ask the solicitor about this but just wanted a heads up.

Thanks again.

From what you've written it doesn't sound like you're running out of time. The matter is still ongoing.

Is it possible that you haven't been referred to your union's legal team because as well as still being in the process they don't think you have a strong case??

It sounds like you might need to complain to the union about their lack of support at hearing. That's not good enough (the other stuff is questionable as to how much involvement the union should provide).

To answer some of your questions:

Yes the grievance outcome letter should have covered off all the issues raised in your grievance. Are you sure that letter is the grievance outcome or just information about the payment you'll receive?

Yes there should be a proper break down of back pay.

Your free legal advice on your home insurance is likely to be just a phone advice service like ACAS. On many policies a solicitor will only get involved after dismissal. You might be lucky and have a better policy but don't bank on this and check it out thoroughly.

Your employer is unlikely to allow anyone other than a union rep or colleague to attend your return to work meeting. You should attend unless your doctor says otherwise. If your doctor does say otherwise s/he will most likely have to put that in writing for you to give to your employer.

There is nothing to stop you putting in another grievance stating that your grievance has not been dealt with properly. Cc HR and the Union in all correspondence. If there are enough problems in the line that you've not be paid properly then it's not unlikely they haven't managed the grievance process correctly.

Finally, county court can be used for harrassment, breach of contract and recovering small (relatively small) sums for unlawful deduction of wages or other costs incurred or money owed by your employer.

Hi IslaDoit, my union rep said they thought I had been treated appallingly, one of the worst cases they had seen in a long time about total disregard for company or legal procedures (basically ignoring all issues, not responding to letters, grievances, flexible work requests, not paying contractual bonus's, not paying other allowances, ignoring my disability and the corresponding reasonable adjustments (I only went into very very brief details here). Have posted on here before under another name and followed excellent advice given to escalate and copy in HR. I have not meant to drip feed, I was worried about being outed in real life. I am beyond caring now.

My union rep failed to turn up at the grievance as planned. I had to do it alone with two managers. I then had a change of rep. My Rep then went on extended pre-planned leave, which was fair enough and referred me to a more senior colleague, who then went on sick leave before I could speak to them. Again, this was just unfortunate. Case was referred to someone even higher (in their absence), for them to consider the merits for legal and/or ET1, but that person also became ill. Hence haven't been able to speak to anyone and worried about time limits.

I exhausted informal options for 3 months before resorting to a grievance. I then had to chase up a date for a grievance meeting, as my grievance was not even acknowledged. Following the grievance, I received no outcome letter at all. (I did receive an email during this time, that they were still looking into things - but only after I had chased them).

Almost three months after the grievance meeting I (not the union) escalated it to a stage 2 Grievance due to the issues being unresolved, no outcome letter being received and monies not being paid. HR and senior managers all notified. (I did receive an email during this time, that they were still looking into things - but only after I had chased them).

I did not receive a letter inviting me to a further grievance meeting, instead I got a horrible letter about how concerned and dissapointed they are that I used formal procedures and have further escalated matters, whilst of sick and without giving them an opportunity to meet with me. They stated that they would wish to discuss this matter with me, as other people don't resort to grievances. (This is untrue, thee have been many grievances against management). This letter did not state 'Outcome' but is the only letter I have received relating to my grievances.

I replied saying how upset I was at the tone of the letter as I was within my rights to raise a grievance. I confirmed that i had met with them informally on numerous occasions, met with them formally at the grievance and had never ever refused to attend a meeting. Was this letter a fundamental breach of the implied trust in our contract? It really upset me as I have followed correct company procedures the entire time and stated during numerous emails that I only wished to resolve matters informally etc, would be willing to compromise or accept im mistaken about any matters and that I was trying to avoid having to formalise issues.

I called ACAS and they said it sounded like I had exhausted all internal options. They were very non committal with any advice and said to speak to my union again.

I then got a letter inviting me to a meeting to discuss a possible return to work, inviting me to be accompanied.

Following advice on here I lodged a new grievance, very very clearly outlining all issues, right from the beginning that I have raised concerns about and outlined how these had not been fully resolved through my prior grievances and I have asked if this meeting will incorporate a grievance meeting as I am signed off with work stress and the issues have yet to be resolved.

HR have indicated that I should just accept that i will be paid my money in a while and that should be good enough!! I haven't a clue how much I will get or when and this does not satisfy the other numerous issues. HR are coming to this meeting, with my manager. This is a huge company with huge resources and I just feel that they are hoping I will resign, as other people have done.

I am waiting for the legal cover on my insurance to call me back. Do I now have to wait for a response from the third grievance or can I complete the tribunal paperwork.

Again, sorry for rambling and thank you all.

Oh that does sound grim I have been in a similar position in the past with grievances ignored and it's so awful being in limbo.

When did you make the last grievance outlining everything? ACAS guidelines for hearing say 5 working days but your organisation may have a specific number of days for response in their grievance policy/procedure. I would say the clock for tribunal starts from the date of their final non-response. However, it is very important to get some specific legal advice ASAP particularly if you are considering the possibilty of resigning and claiming constructive dismissal.

Make sure you understand exactly what your legal insurance covers before you engage a solicitor or spend money on legal advice or resign.

Final grievance was middle of last week, they have a week to acknowledge it, according to their own policy.

My legal cover just rang and was very abrupt - said I should attend this meeting, without a rep if there isn't one available and then contact them afterwards to update them. Said I may have missed deadlines as been over three months since first grievance.

I will try the union - again :(

Don't panic yet. Is that the legal rep from the insurance? IME they are about as useful as ACAS. Occasionally excellent, often a bit shit. You can request to speak to an actual solicitor but they often want to see all your case documents first.

Try your union. Explain that you are making a final grievance with a view to resigning and making a tribunal claim. That should get them moving.

I do think you should attend the meeting. I once supported someone through grievance and exit from a large organisation. Even while discussions were going on to negotiate her pay-off the normal process had to continue including inviting her to the return to work meeting. She was also off sick with stress caused by the job (physical symptoms including high blood pressure and palpitations). She was very upset but it is absolutely correct to carry on with all other procedures separate to the grievance as normal.

It's just a meeting, not a disciplinary or a grievance hearing. If you want to you could see if they'll allow a colleague or friend to attend to take notes. That might help a bit.

Thank you IslaDoit. It's nice just to have a friendly response, I feel absolutely shit and just want to quit, but its the principle of the matter.

That was the legal rep from the insuramce. I was on the phone less than two minutes. It's just frustrating that I paid extra for legal cover and also pay my union fees, yet the one time in my entire life I need support, where is it?? Thank god for this forum.

I told the union in mid dec that I felt a fundamental/repudiatory breach had occured and I wished to resign etc and go to tribunal but they still didn't come back to me. I am getting a complex! I have just emailed them union again and left a voicemail

It does say a friend or colleaugue can go, but part of my issue is the bullying and victimisation I have also faced - they have already pulled colleagues into and office and told them not to associate with me (even though I am friendly with everyone and close friends with several of them and see them regularly outside of work). My colleagues have overheard them talking about me and have read confidential letters about me lying around in the office. I would not even ask any of them to attend as they may then be victimised - the level of staff turnover through people leaving, being sacked or suspended or going on long term sick is enormous. Another colleague received his backdated underpaid salary a couple of months ago and was instructed not to tell me, even though everyone at work knows.

I haven't even considered a pay off. Is that what usually happens at tribunal? I can't go back to that job now, I was thinking more along the lines of asking to be moved to a different team, in a different office. Is this reasonable? I am scared that if I resign I will struggle to find a new job without a reference, so even if I did get a little pay off, it may not be worth it if i cant find new employment at he same level. I just dont know what to do.

I am now on a high level of medication for stress and depression.

What happened to your friend at tribunal? She she manage to get another job afterwards? Did she have a solicitor?

Thank you.

I think you need to decide what you want to do. If you want to leave then you approach things a different way to how you would if you want to stay.

We didn't get as far as tribunal. She took a compromise agreement with a few months pay and a good reference and took early retirement. She didn't want to work there any more. She was also in the fortunate position she didn't need to work. Since she left she has taken up some ad hoc part time work in a related field but at a lower level. She's much happier. She didn't have a solicitor but did have an active union (public sector worker).

Right then, I will have a dig around on the internet about compromise agreements, if i could get the money they owe me (and maybe some extra?) AND a reference that would be the preferred outcome.

I cannot afford not to work or to have a big gap inbetween jobs. If I have a reference, I will be able to get a locum job whilst I search for a permanent job, i will just lose my continuous service, enhanced benefits etc.

I was thinking about moving to a different office as this is preferable to being unemployed and being unable to get a comparible job without a reference. However it is the same company, same HR team etc and I would be bumping into my current managers fairly frequently, so would still be within a stressful situation.

The other option is much preferable, no one has mentioned these compromise agreements. I've seen them mentioned on other threads, but thought they were something work offered you, if it was a high value case they were likely to lose and they wanted to avoid negative publicity.

Thank you :)

Have a careful think about it before you decide what to do. I expect your union would prefer to help you negotiate an exit and compromise agreement than pay for legal advice and representation at tribunal.

But do get some specific legal advice. Check with your union - some get funny about you taking external legal advice.

Obviously if you go in asking for a compromise agreement that puts a different spin on it if they offer you one. Don't ask for one without taking proper advice.

It's not the cost of losing a case companies worry about - it's the cost of the tribunal. The legal and employee fees etc which makes employers keen to settle unless they think they have a cast iron defence.

If I don't get an answer from my union then about me using their in-house solicitors, i will pay for one, if my house insurance refuse.

I'm just worried as I know you cannot claim legal costs back from your opponent.

So, is it preferable to be offered a compromise agreement, rather than to ask for one?

Can I suggest one and if they reject it can I ask to move offices?

Any ideas on why they would send my to Occupational Health twice and then not follow recommendations - when the recommendations had a minimal, if any, impact to the business but a major positive impact on my health and all at no extra cost to them? Could they justify this when it's a massive company?

Is there any justifiable reasons they could give the judge for failing to respond to grievances properly or failing to respond to a flexible work request at all? Not a case of refusing my request, just ignoring it completely?

Would there be any justifiable reason why it has taken over 6 months to even get them to state that I will receive some backpay, when I have several emails from HR confirming my entitlement and outlining that all management need to do is email them my start date and job title? I still don't know exactly when I will receive this and my colleagues have had theirs.

I've never been in a discilinary and have always had good appraisals.

Do you work in HR then, or did you learn all this when helping your (very lucky) friend?

Thank you again, I promise not to ask any further questions!!!

I'm in HR and I have like many people who post in EI had a difficult situation myeslf. I have also been support for colleagues before now as well as my friend. I've also sat on the other side of the table as a manager many, many times.

The question about a compromise agreement depends on many things. In my case asking for one was the right thing to do at the time. I needed to get out of the situation. With hindsight I should have taken legal advice first and if it happened now knowing what I do I'd probably do it differently. Your legal advisor will be able to advise you.

You can request to move offices compromise agreement or not. Any discussion about a compromise agreement is "without prejudice" which simply put means off the record, so all other discussions/processes can and should continue as normal.

No idea without knowing more about your situation and your employer's opinion why they would reject their own occupational health advice. If the changes are covered by disability legislation they would have to clearly explain why they could not accommodate a reasonable adjustment.

Re the ignoring flexible working requests and grievances probably not. They might say they never received it or they did deal with it but you didn't like the outcome. Or they might plead incompetence (that would only be a defence against a discrimination allegation and not a very good one at that).

Back pay question there probably isn't. They may try to argue an incompetent manager but that'll get short shrift in a large organisation. Or that you were not entitled to it.

Asking questions is not a problem. I know how scary it is when you don't know what's happening and when you feel out of control. Knowing what's happening next and what your options are can be a comfort. As is talking about it sometimes.

Sorry you also had a difficult time. Your job must be very interesting though, having been on all sides of the table.

OH recommendations definitely covered by disability legislation. GP also wrote to manager requesting them to follow through with the OH advice.

One of the recommendations was flexible working, hence my request. They cannot say they never received it, as I sent it via email and have a return receipt, ditto for grievances and everything else.

(Have a return receipt that shows my manager only read my grievance AFTER the grievance meeting). Also had an email saying they are still gathering information and will come back to me so they cannot deny knowledge.

I have numerous emails from HR that both me and manager are copied into clearly outlining that I am entitled to this contractual money but that my manager needs to request it and provide my job title and start date for their admin/budget codes. No question over me not being entitled. This is a huge employer. (Also cannot understand why HR just could not authorise it themselves as they already have all my details, just seems like red tape).

On the plus side, maybe my Union and HR folk are also avid mumsnetters as I received contact from both, later on today. HR have agreed to postpone the meeting so my Union can accompany me. My Union have agreed to obtain legal advice. This is such a relief.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to provide much needed advice. I feel so much better.