Is it possible to be a postdoc on compressed hours do you think?

[bigkidsdidit]

hi

I'm starting a second postdoc soon and would like to do compressed hours, 4 days, and have a day at home with DS. My DH has negotiated this for himself already in his new job (different work) and I was assuming no problem. I would want to work 4 long days and also evenings etc when DS is asleep, and have no problem with comign in on my day off if need be. At my current job I do about 48 horus a week but all over the place and am not on formal compressed hours (very flexible boss)! I tend to do 6.30-3 and evenings now, plus a 12 hour day when DH has his day off, and I pop in most Saturday mornings while DH and DS are swimming to check my experiments.

However my supervisor-to-be has indicated he thinks it won't work and intimated (I might be reading more than is there, but DH and my dad both read the email and agree with my interpretation) it is because I ought to be working more than 9-5 5 days so going to more than 9-5 4 days is not compressing hours but going part time (contract is only 35 hours). He suggested I could go part time but I don't want to do that as really, he will expect the same papers etc from me but I will earn less.

Have I been really exceptionally lucky so far? Is it not possible to do a second post doc on compressed hours? I am gettign very down indeed about spending less time with DS.

Any academics who have made it work out there?

I thinks its about you having a relationship with your new boss- different people have different views on what will work. - he might have had a bad experience in the past say. and your old boss sounds like they were exceptionally flexiable. Why not look at 4 days a week as he has offered that and suggest you will review it in say 6 months. I know its a pay cut but would mean you have the time with DS

Yes I realise he doesn't know me and I could be a slacker! I guess because I work so much more than my contracted hours, I could have a bit of leeway on when I worked.

I really don't want to drop to part time, I would be doing a full time job but paid less. I have seen it happen to friends :(

It does sound like your new boss is abit of a workaholic. My DH is an academic (in a scientific disclipine- he does labwork too), and he's pretty free to do what he wants with it (but he obviously works alot more than the trad 9-5 etc).

Its tricky- imo its just down to an individual boss' preferences and prejudices.

I'm not sure on this, but I think as a parent of a school age child, you have the right to request flexible working? Or you could point out the working time directive? (again I'm not sure if this would be much help to him, and I'm not precisely sure the UK is signed up to it).

Its hard being in academia (not to mention the crap pay!) because so much of the work is supposed to be done in your own time, e.g. writing papers. I think our European counterparts are better at this than us because when I was studying at a uni in one of the nordic countries, the dept would be deserted at 5pm inc all the professors.

most postdocs i know often go through periods of working 12hr days 5days a week, so if you're only in four days then your automatically doing less slave labour unpaid overtime.

it's not a good thing though and i think you should fight it, ask him what he thinks a reasonable week would be, and whether you have to waive your rights under the european working time directive... only once youv'e got an idea if he expects 40hrs or 60 can you proceed to how those hours are arranged.

I just thought- perhaps you could get your current boss to write an email explaining the hours to the new boss? And that you are a good worker etc, just need abit of flexibility. Or you could suggest you keep a log of our hours worked, and what you did...and that you could trial it for say, 3 months and give the new boss an option to review it if its not working out? Or you could just email him yourself and put your case across and say about how its working out fine in your new job....?

that is pretty much the deal when you drop to 4 days in many jobs in academia or not - I have just started a new job on 30 hours and it would have been the same targets etc for full time but its worth it to me to have extra time with my DCs - also remember he doesn't have to offer you any thing at all - could say full time 9-5 or nothing

thanks for all the replies everyone.

I love academia (am a scientist too) and one of the things I love most is I can set my own work schedule and priorities. I don't have any teaching or tutorials or anything like that so really could work through the night and be off all day and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. This is why I was a bit taken aback.

I also think there is a massive culture of presenteeism. My PhD supervisor made professor at 37 having only ever owrked 9-5. She was just incredibly productive in those hours! I know there are busy experiemtnal times when I will need to work 12 hours days and I'm happy to do that - will have lots of family nearby and DH has a flexible job. I was just hopign my flexibility would be matched.

I guess I need to work a bit and prove I'm a hard worker and then try again?

IMo you are better to ask for 'flexible working' than 'compressed hours'.
Compressed hours work well in settings where other employees have fixed working hours and fixed breaks and so it is clearly possible to do the same hours compressed into fewer days. What you are asking for is rather different - the ability to make up some of your daytime hours in the evenings, presumably in a rather flexible manner.

FWIW I've just agreed to a new postdoc to work flexibly so that she is at home one day a week and leaves early to do the school run on some other days. As long as she does the work I don't care when she does it. And it helps to have a reference from a previous emplyer saying that you have previously made thsi etup work. All this relies on your employer having the confidence that they will get the required amount of work out of you. personally I know that I could NOT make up enough of the extra hours, which is why I stayed 0.8 FTE. I probably do work a full week by some people's standards, but I definately don't work the same hours as my FT colleagues.

hi bigkidsdidit, i am postdoc too. so far i've been very lucky with all supervisors being extremely flexible. the flexibility came after i'd known them for a little while (i think - hard to remember really!). saying that, i don't think any of them would have formally ok'd a whole day off every week. maybe you could go for an afternoon as a compromise (probably awkward for childcare though).

good luck to you, science is a difficult place to be right now

When I was a postdoc, I had a 0.8 contract and did some flexible work but mostly 9-5. However the main reason was it was lab based science and out of hours working wasn't overly allowed, dangerous chemicals, hot furnaces and 7pm just don't mix, also a lot of my work relied on technical support and so I had to be there when they were there to help.

Thanks everyone :)

Have signed DS up with the CM four days (DH is off Fridays) and will work flexibly whenever possible so I can see lots of him when I can. Think that is best for now.

As an aside, I do think the long hours culture is in large part presenteeism.
I was at a very good place where postdocs and students would stay all hours but go for a run at lunch and out for coffee in te afternoon. My mate who got a nature paper this year only ever works 9-5 but doesn't stop in that time. Much more my style!

Contracted hours in academia are a complete joke, BTW - what matters is outputs, and as long as you're getting papers written I (as a PI) wouldn't care what days you were in the office or how many hours you worked - though it's completely impossible IME to keep up a productive rate of papers on 35 hours a week. You should really think of the job as being 48 hours (the legal maximum without optout) and working out how you can fit them in while working flexibly, including working from home.

I myself work a 5 day week Tue-Sat, answer email at least twice daily, and work most evenings unless I fall asleep through sheer exhaustion at 8 PM

Also, until I got to know a new postdoc I would expect them to work when I asked them to, though I would think 4 days in the lab per week was plenty.

Asking for condensed hours is just asking for trouble because no academic I know works their contracted 35-hour week. That's just HR fantasy land. I repeat: it's about outputs, not bums on lab stools

Hmmm I didn't word it very well jn my email perhaps

I would still work 45-50 hours a week which I agree is required for me to do well. I'd just like to juggle it all so one day would be at home (but I'd work while DS naps and once he's in bed which currently is 6.30).

I'll chat to my new boss about it once I get there and he can see i take the job seriously, the cut of my jib

I'm also an academic, and would also recommend asking for non-trad hours rather than compressed hours. As long as it is clear you are organised and get the work done, It shouldn't matter when you work.

A few strategic emails to your PI at 10pm asking "I was just planning that new expt and wondered what you think of ...." will show you are working even when you aren't physically there.

I agree. Night before last I was in a and e all night with DS (who is fine now) so I slept in the day and worked 5-1am last night. Worked well! That's the sort of thing I mean - not working to 35 hour rule.

Any tips on how to approach it with him?

Well personally I'd forget about it for now and see how you get on; you may discover your PI himself is not in the lab that often, so flexibility might be possible. You might be able to negotiate coming into the lab on Saturday rather than on e.g. Friday, as another possibility, but I'm afraid I think you've already given your new PI entirely the wrong impression that you wish to work to rule, which simply will not result in the work getting done. Remember, he doesn't know you; it sounds like he is assuming that you think you can be a full-time academic on four days' work a week, which simply is not possible, especially in science. (He would assume all those days would be long days anyway because his will be). If this REALLY bothers you, you're possibly not in the right profession. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

PS it's obvious to me that you don't want to work to rule, but it's clearly not obvious to him, and you need to work out how to row back from that. HTH