Being paid less than a man when we do the exact same job.

[ilovefoodmum]

Thats it really. This is several hundred pounds per month. He also gets company benefits that I dont receive, eg better training, better allowances, three monthly bonuses and better expenses.

He did not start before me and has no more experience than me.

We are both equally qualified and experienced to do the job.

Human Resources have not dealt with the situation. They said my manager needs to deal with it.

My manager ignored my complaint. I made a formal grievance and have had no response, although this was quite some time ago. My managers line manager was then informed but still nothing.

Stupidly, I am not a union member.

What can I do? This situation has gone on for years.

what utter tossers
good luck!

It's quite common that when people start work at different times, they may get different deals - it really depends how much the company needed him at the time. He may have been able to drive a hard bargain. In many cases, employees are just not aware of the differences because they don't discuss wages openly.

Not that it was necessarily the case here of course. It's important that you get to the bottom of it as you clearly feel undervalued.

I'm sure it's worth joining the union, if you have one. This is exactly what they are here for. Good luck.

I was on roughly the same salary in my previous job. He was on a lower salary. We joined at the same time.

I was working for a different company, he was working for the same company.

In our workplace starting salaries are supposed to be at the bottom of each band, especially for people moving up from a lower band. They can match salaries for external candidates. We have the same job titles. I have more experience.

There have been issues with his work and i have met my targets. Other people, male and female receive enhanced packages and bonuses to me. I have no idea why.

but i have had a baby since i started, now that you mention it!

xmas I know what you are trying to say and it is a fair comment on the surface, but isn't it funny that it is usually the men who 'drive a hard bargain' or men who employers need more at precisely this time. I speak as a woman that worked for over 12 years in a very male-dominated environment and I joined with an open mind and left feeling totally disillusioned (that said I myself was fairly treated on the whole, I think).

In a discrimination case you can still be employed and make a tribunal claim. If you have asked all the questions in the equal pay questionnaire and haven't had a response then it doesn't look good for them.

You could make a claim on line - it is not too difficult. The problem is you are making a lot of assumptions because they haven't replied. Are your jobs exactly the same - same title and job description?

If you do go down this route, you need to be sure as it is likely to cause bad feeling. You are protected under victimisation clauses but it could still result in some unpleasantness without less favourable treatment iyswim. If you do peruse a claim I would recommend getting someone to represent you - they can be very intimidating, ESP if your company has the resources for a barrister.

It might be worth submitting the Questionnaire anyway just to cover yourself but their lack of response so far suggests they don't have a legal response and are working out how to cover their arses IMO.

Good luck.

Pursue a claim, stupid auto correct.

I know my information is accurate.

We do exact same job, started together and fullfilled the same person specification and have exactly the same job description.

I have received nothing but praise - him not so much.

I have already told them i will not let this drop. They also failed to respond to my flexible working request.

grevling are you in HR then?

thanks

Iagree it is not illegal to pay one individual more than another, and I am sure the OP knows that too. However, surely if the OP has raised this as a potential discrimination issue, and they have failed to respond with their reasons (presumably because they don't have good reasons) then she has a strong case to prove discrimination?

OP, should have asked - have you specifically asked for a pay rise and not had one? (even if you just didn't receive an answer, which I bet was the case rather than them turning you down)

Shriiieeek - I have specifically asked for a pay rise to equal his. I am aware that there could be material factors that I am unaware of, that mean they can pay him more. I asked for an explanation. It never came ....

Make sure all your dealings with this case are in writing, not verbal - you will need proof later on if you pursue a claim. If by email, forward original and any reply to your home email too.

"grevling are you in HR then?"

No, but worked in enough places where there wasn't any HR and as the boss it landed on my desk :) As such what I say could be complete tosh so get proper advice!

"I was working for a different company, he was working for the same company."

This is the bit you need answers on. His salary might have been lower but you need to find out what was agreed when he moved. Did he have good holiday / benefits package he was giving up. Was it a move away from his location to a new one. Where they desperate?

"Other people, male and female receive enhanced packages and bonuses to me. I have no idea why."

You also need to look at this. It could be they offered you a low starting point and you accepted. If other people inc female are getting more than you then it gets harder to prove sex discrimination as some women are in the more favourable position. Not saying it's impossible to prove but does give them a good defence.

"but isn't it funny that it is usually the men who 'drive a hard bargain'"

It's a well known fact that most women don't negotiate when offered a job.

Hi poopy, i have hard copies and electronic copies of all correspondance.

Hi grevling. I did attempt to negotiate and was told there was no negotiation. This turned out to be untrue as there is a clause that states that pay and benefits can be matched/improved to external candidates current salary and this is the only reason why they may start at a higher rate. His pay and package was definitey lower in previous job so he definitely should not have started on more than me. He did not have to move location. I would not say they were particularly desperate to hire people.

He also started on more than the other females in our regional area, they all also started on the bottom. (allegedly).Having spoken to other people, they were under the impression that these bonuses should be payable to all and a mistake must have been made in my case. However, HR and management are not responding.

He definitely gets other benefits I dont too but I believe our holiday entitlement is the same.

Other people had flexible working requests approved or rejected. I have just had no response. Might I add, he works flexibly too!

They have clearly failed to follow their own procedures in terms of their committed timescales for resolving grievances but when u say ages how long has it been?
I would write to them pointing out your grievance is outstanding and you have done everything to resolve this issue however should they fail to respond then you shall consider you have no choice but to submit an equal pay claim through an ET.

Personally I wouldn't waste my money on union membership as in my experience if you have an issue upon joining they will not support you with it only future issues once you have been greasing their wheels a while (as I said IME) you'd be better off with ACAS who are free support. Does your company have an employee wellbeing programme they often provide legal advice and could help.

They have clearly failed to follow their own procedures in terms of their committed timescales for resolving grievances but when u say ages how long has it been?
I would write to them pointing out your grievance is outstanding and you have done everything to resolve this issue however should they fail to respond then you shall consider you have no choice but to submit an equal pay claim through an ET.

This is exactly what I was going to point out. It's not for me to say if an ET is for you or not but I have been told (by a top union bloke) that most ET are lost due to the company failing to follow their own procedures. I would send another letter stating that your grievance dated xxx has not been responded too and that under their policy you should have received a response within 7 days.

I'm sure that with one I dealt with I responded within the 7 days to state it wouldn't be till x date for an answer due to investigations needed. So even a 'holding' letter would have been enough.

I have raised complaints to management and HR in writing for almost 6 months. It is my understanding that these could also be treated as Grievances?

As nothing happened and the situation continued, I filed my formal grievance roughly two months ago and had the meeting one month ago. Their timescale says they have to have enough time to gather evidence for the meeting, then a written decision should be provided within a week. So they are seriously out of timescale. I emailed them a week ago to inform them they were out of timescale and not following their own procedures. I did confirm that I would not let this drop and would seek legal representation for an employment tribunal. My manager sent a simple email back, to say the grievance is still being dealt with, but no clarification on when I should hear anything.

So I guess I will be finding myself a solicitor tomorrow for a free consultation. I think I have a good case, just don't know if it would be worth it as have no idea how much i would need to pay in legal fees. I was considering completing the employment tribunal forms myself.

TBH ACAS/CAB will just reiterate what you already know. Given that they are clearly ignoring you I would speak to solicitor and get him to draft a 'shot across the bows' letter. You'll have to pay a couple of hundred pounds to get a letter sent off to them; after that you can do all the initial ET claim yourself. A first letter form a solicitor though ups the stakes in their eyes, so that might be all you need.

Acas are great, give them a call.

Ok you need to take the next step then. If you are doing the same job and being paid substantially less it the employer needs to show there is a legitimate business reason for doing so. It doesn't sound like there is one here.

You have raised a grievance and had no response. You have two options. Either you go straight to making a tribunal claim or you put in another grievance about the way the first grievance has been handled (or not handled). Personally, if they are ignoring you and your efforts as you describe I'd go straight to completing a tribunal claim. You can do this online and complete an ET1. You have three months less one day from date of incident to do this - date of incident is arguably 28 days after your grievance went in because that is the ACAS guidelines for when your grievance should be dealt with.

Once you have made your tribunal claim it will be sent to your employer to respond. You may find they do something then. If not, it will go before a tribunal and you will each have your say and a decision will be made.

It used to be the case that your pay would be corrected from the date of the tribunal ruling in your favour, but that changed and it can now be backdated up to six years.

You've tried the informal route, formal and grievance route, the next step is tribunal. Good luck

My formal grievance went in two months ago - not 28 days. It then took a month for them to schedule the meeting (i have copies of my correspondance chasing them for a date).

The actual grievance meeting was just within the last 28 days.

I looked at the next stage of the grievance procedure - it states that I can appeal within 7 days of their decision, but as no decision as been made this does not apply.

Have I missed my chance?? Have they been stringing me along knowing that it would then be too late for me to go to tribunal???

I should say this is a massive organisation with a massive HR department. I invited them to the meeting, they accepted and emailed at a later date to say there was no need for them to attend as my manager would be able to deal with everything.

Thank you to everyone who has replied, the response has been fantastic.

Yes I got that your grievance went in two months ago. My point was they have 28 days to do something and that is when the clock would start ticking for a tribunal claim.

As they have had the hearing but not sent you the decision I'd put in the tribunal claim and then send them a reminder note saying you've had the grievance hearing and a reply was expected but as you've not heard anything, and you're worried about being out of time to make a tribunal claim, you've lodged your ET1 any way just to be on the safe side.

That's a bit sneaky because you could wait but I do get the impression they've been stringing you along for ages and this might give them the impetus to do something.

Thanks Katie, but im slightly confused. Are you saying that they have 28 days since the grievance meeting to do something, not since the grievance letter?

I will find a solicitor to help me do my tribunal forms in the next couple of days.

Their own policy states a written response will be given within 7 days of the meeting. Can I ignore them if they do eventually respond now? I would prefer to leave it for the tribunal to deal with instead as it is causing me lots of stress.

Will I be liable for their costs if I am unsuccessful?

Thanks again.

I can't find a reference to the 28 days in the ACAS code. I was sure it was in there but maybe it was a common law reference. Either way, the wording about decisions for grievance meetings is as follows:

Decide on appropriate action
38. Following the meeting decide on what action, if any, to take. Decisions
should be communicated to the employee, in writing, without
unreasonable delay and, where appropriate, should set out what action
the employer intends to take to resolve the grievance. The employee
should be informed that they can appeal if they are not content with the
action taken.

From here: www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/h/m/Acas_Code_of_Practice_1_on_disciplinary_and_grievance_procedures.pdf

Your employer should follow their own grievance procedure but it should not be any worse than the ACAS code of conduct. So if they are not following their own I'd think the clock was ticking from the day after the decision should have been made. You then have three months, less one day, to make a claim (this could change if they come back with a decision and/or then go to appeal as the time is from when they did something. In your case it will be declining or effectively declining to uphold your grievance).

You don't need a solicitor to help you do the forms (unless you want to). They are fairly straightforward. If you can negotiate the equal pay questionnaire you can probably do the forms. Personally for an equal pay claim I'd do my own paperwork but for a more complicated discrimination claim I'd want a solicitor. However, I know the law and have some experience of claims so my situation is very different to yours.

Your case should be very straightforward: I do XYZ job. A, a man, does XYZ job too. He is paid £XXXX more than me per annum. I have raised this with my employer on the following occasions, including a grievance that was heard on X date but no decision was made. I believe I am being discriminated against because of my sex, which is a characteristic protected by legislation in the Equality Act 2010, and that I should be paid the same as colleague A.

You will be liable for all your legal costs whether you win or not. You do have to be reasonable and that means engaging with your employer if they come back at a later date with a decision and if necessary picking up the process again. Tribunal claims can take months to be heard so if you can resolve the issue with your employer you should.

This is a useful link: www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/DiscriminationAtWork/DG_10026665

You should still contact your employer in case the decision letter has been lost in the post.

Thank you so much, thats really helpful.

He has had thousands of pounds worth of extra training that I was denied - can I count this in too, as a benefit?

Can I also mention the failure to respond to my flexible working request. I know that is not an equal pay claim, but would it not be indirect sex discrimination as more females have childcare responsibility? If they said no, and had considered it I would accept this. But they have just ignored that too.