Shocked at treatment by employers on return to work - anyone else?

[Lizzietow]

Hi all.

Bit of a rant, but I'd just like to say that I have been shocked by mine, and my fellow new mums' (from my ante-natal group), treatment on our return to work.

For many of us, the attitude we've got is "just because she's got a baby doesn't mean she should be treated any differently". Which is true is some ways - but we do have a need for more flexible working in order to put our children first, and there are laws to protect this.

For my part, I work for the NHS, who you would have thought would be clued up on this sort of thing. I put in a flexible working request back in January, ready for my return to work in June. Plenty of time, you'd think. I asked for a reduction in hours to 4 days, with one of those days working from home (where I would still have childcare in place - it just took the pressure off the commute). I said I would still be flexible and come in for important meetings as required.

The reduction in hours was of course agreed immediately (saves money). However, there was a complete resistance to the working from home request. At first, no reason was given for this at all - which is against flexible working policies nationally and locally (a sound business case must be produced within 28 days if a request is declined). 3 months later I got a formal response saying that they had declined it as I am required to attend meetings - which is nonsense as I'd already said I would be flexible.

Anyway - after going to a meeting with union representation, on the VERY WEEK of my return to work, I got what I wanted as of course they didn't have a leg to stand on. But the legacy now is a feeling I've somehow 'got it easy', and with one colleague in particular ensuring I have as many meetings as possible in the diary and generally doing her best to make me feel bad about it.

A mum friend of mine has had exactly the same issue with her flexible working request - it's been declined verbally with no official response, forcing her to turn to unions. I find that amazing.

Another - a teacher - asked for management team meetings to be held at 3pm instead of 4pm. Everyone who attends these meetings agreed, apart from the Head - who declined it, and followed this up by telling her "I don't think you're coping very well are you?". He also asked her in a meeting if she'd ever breastfed in public, as though it was something dirty.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my job and I appreciate having a job. But I really am shocked at the way I and my friends have been made to feel. I don't expect any kid glove treatment, but a bit of understanding in this day and age would go a long way!

Rant over....is it just me and my circle of friends?

xx

the working from home to ease your commute would annoy me if i was a collegue of yours.

Me too hifi

While your employer should reapond to fwr in a timely manner, the rest of your post comes across as very entitled.

Outside your right to request flexible working, and your right to emergency time off to care and your right to unpaid parental leave, there is no reason you should be treated any differently just because you have a baby. Full stop, no ifs or buts.

I'd be miffed as well if a colleague expected to work from home to save travelling time - if you dont like the commute then work closer to home. If i was an employer i'd wonder if you were actually planning to use it to work or to spend with the children.

No, I don't expect to be treated any differently. Lots of people in NHS/Local Gov work from home routinely with or without children. It saves money for the employer, both in terms of the productivity of the employee & use of equipment. Home working will be the norm for many lines of business in years to come.

I guess I didn't get my point across and I'm still finding it hard to put into words. It's a feeling that my employers made things difficult (and remember the case was upheld) BECAUSE I'm a mum, as though to make some kind of example or point. I wasn't looking for it, didn't expect it. Never used unions in my life before.

Colleague mentioned above who now makes life difficult routinely works from home on Wednesdays, another reason I was so shocked.

Hi-fi - your statement implies you think working from home is a cushy number. This is well archaic- I'm not sat on my arse drinking coffee all day, I'm working! What is it with the lack of trust with home working? I get more done, can focus better on projects.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7803246/Home-working-allows-employees-to-clock-up-an-extra-couple-of-days-of-work-a-week.html - interesting article on it.

I work for central Government where we are supposed to have a right to work flexibly where appropriate. In my department, there is enormous variation between divisions - in some, almost everyone works flexibly in some way or other (part time, partly/mainly working from home, sometimes coming in early/late), and it's not considered a problem - you're either doing your work properly or you aren't.

In others, almost no-one does and there's an attitude that flexibility is cheating and it's heavily discouraged. It all comes down to the attitude of the relevant director. It's often less-popular areas where it's easier, as they have to be flexible to entice good staff in.

I can see that flexible working can be hard for some businesses to accommodate, however if the is a genuine business case then it can be turned down. If there were proper grounds for refusal then the OP and all her friends would not have been granted flexible working.

I had a very similar situation, my request wasn't refused but my boss didn't respond properly within the deadlines, hummed and hawed, said they probably wouldn't be able to grant my request (dropping from 5 days to 2) and then, days before I was due to return, finally agreed. I'd made a decent business case and offered them lots of flexibility in return, so I thought there was a good chance it would work out in the end, but all the messing around left a very bitter taste. My boss hasn't learnt because he's just done exactly the same thing to another colleague.

I think that's the OP's point, if it can be refused, go ahead and refuse the fwr, if you're going to end up agreeing, do it early, with good grace and keep everyone happy.

Yes I agree, pelvicfloor (love the name haha!). All the messing around just wastes everyone's time. There was no business case for refusing my request, and it's working brilliantly now it's finally been agreed. There is a weird variation in people's attitudes to home working- like the person above who said 'work closer to home then' or something. Missing the point.

If the reason for wanting to work from home is to reduce a long commute then I'm not sure a suggestion to find work nearer home is entirely missing the point tbh.

Doesn't sound like your flexible working request was handled particlarly well but I'm not sure that counts in itself as 'shocking treatment'. And comments like "I got what I wanted as of course they didn't have a leg to stand on" do make you sound a bit entitled. Just because your employer didn't follow the required timescales for flexible working or the right procedure in terms of giving business reasons for refusal doesn't mean they didn't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to refuse it. They still could have done had they given a good reason.

However I agree it would have been better all round if they'd followed a decent procedure and sorted it out quickly without having to get unions involved. A supportive line manager goes a long way in these situations and similarly one who is not especially supportive of staff working at home (which may be for perfectly valid reasons) can mean it feels like wading through treacle.

You can't expect preferential treatment WRT working from home if your colleagues don't get it. That would be discriminatory to your colleagues that don't have children. I asked to work from home in my previous role but was declined. Due to circumstances, I had to leave the job. I would be furious if I subsequently found out that someone that happened to have children was given this opportunity. Same applies to any type of request for flexible working.

The problem is of course that special treatment for one group of people breeds resentment in another...

Your colleagues will have probably been covering your workload when off on maternity leave (since it's really hard to find temp replacements who are sufficiently skilled to cover complex work) and they'll be totally frazzled and looking forward to things going back to normal.

Except it's not normal, because you now expect to have everything revolve around your home life, whereas their home lives have been turned upside down having to work extra hours, move meetings, spend their working day sending you files to work on from home or answering your desk phone or dealing with the everyday office stuff which you don't have to do since you aren't there when working from home. And I'm willing to bet that you wanted to work from home either Friday/Monday so you got a long weekend, along with the other mums in the company - and you can't have everyone off all at the same time.

I think everyone should have the right to flexible working, not just parents. I'm thinking specifically of those who have aged parents, pets, hobbies outside of work or who are studying in order to further their careers - all of those are equally valid reasons to want flexibility, and yet they are not considered important enough to be enshrined by law.

And I also think that if it's not possible to accommodate then you need to just deal with it or go find a job which can accommodate you.

I'm afraid I tend to agree with the other posters. For example, your friend who wanted to move the meetings to 3pm. Even for teachers, presumably this is in the middle of the working day? For anyone in a 9-5 job that would be seriously disruptive to the afternoon's work. By 4pm you can have got a good couple of hours' work done and have the meeting before sloping off home.

Your employer has an obligation to consider a reasonable request. Not to say yes automatically and pussyfoot around you because you've magically produced a child

I think a lot of this is about the tone in which things are said. Quite aside from the legal requirements and formalities, the way people say things makes such a huge difference. If everyone deals with each other with respect, everyone's needs can be better met - with or without children/an aged relative to care for etc. etc.. A boss who says "Ouch, 3pm, that's really inconvenient for me as it cuts right through my working afternoon, but I can understand that your kids are waiting for you at home" can still announce that the meeting will take place at 4pm but can show respect for the member of staff. Asking if that staff member has breastfed in public doesn't make for a respectful working atmosphere imo.
Of course parents should not have more special treatment than anyone else - EVERYONE could do with being treated with respect, whether or not they get what else they want.

Hi all, I'm genuinely surprised by the tone of this message board. Whilst I can see that those requesting flexible working need to be sensitive to their colleagues (including not creating any extra work for them, being clear that work from home really is work not shirk time etc), it would be nice if parents could show a little more comradely support to one another.

The way I see it flexible working may not be an "entitlement" but the right to request it, and not have it turned down except where there is a business case sufficiently robust to stand up in tribunal, is. When it comes down to it many parents get fobbed off by their employers at an early stage, too fearful to take things to tribunal. The result is that employers are rarely encouraged to properly think through their business practices and culture change toward a genuinely family friendly world of work is slow. This seems a great pitty, not only for families but for the economy too given the proven economic benefits of keeping workers happy, attracting women in, home working, etc, etc.

I'd be very interested to hear about others having a hard time getting agreement to flexible working. Is it still a problem in any of the big corporates? You hear about the ones with 'good practice' but little about the bad guys these days.

I?m also surprised at some of the messages on this board.

The OP has stated quite clearly (and correctly) that working from home can be pretty routine in the NHS/local government. It?s not confined to those with children.

Depending on the position there may be no problem in requesting a day working from home to ease a commute and the people stating the OP should just ?work closer to home then? are the ones missing the point IMO.

The OP followed the correct protocol ? it?s not too much to expect that your employers will do the same, and that your colleagues won?t act like spoilt six year olds having a tantrum.

I don?t currently have kids, have had to cover for people on parental leave before/taking kids to appointments etc., and I have absolutely no issue with it. If someone is a good worker they?ll make up the time, if not then they were in all probability a crappy worker before they had kids too.

?If i was an employer i'd wonder if you were actually planning to use it to work or to spend with the children.?

What a ridiculous response. Just because YOU might spend a day working from home lazing around doesn't mean others share your attitude.

The OP also stated that her friend's (the teacher requesting meetings be moved) colleagues all agreed to the move - presumably it's not a big deal. The comment by the headteacher about breastfeeding in public is seriously out of line, and could constitute harassment.

Sounds like there are a lot of sour grapes on this thread to me.

"?If i was an employer i'd wonder if you were actually planning to use it to work or to spend with the children.?

What a ridiculous response."

What's ridiculous about that samandi? I have heard many many cases both on MN and in RL of people who request homeworking but have no intention (if they can get away with it) of putting childcare in place for the days they are 'working' from home. It's entirely likely HappyMummy has encountered a colleague doing that or heard of people doing that meaning that's an entirely reasonable thing to wonder.

We can all only speak of our own experience. My own experience of giving a lot of advice on here is that many many people overestimate what their actual rights are in this area. It's perfectly possible for an employer to refuse most requests, tbh, as long as the right boxes are ticked, and although a tribunal can force an employer to hear a request again, they can't tell them employer to agree it. Ultimately if an employee wants to force an employer to agree their request, they have to bring a discrimination claim.

Yes the employer should always follow the procedure, and yes it would be lovely if more employers/managers were open to part time working, homeworking, term time working etc, but I don't think delaying too long and not following procedure to the letter constitutes 'shocking treatment' when set against some of the horrific things that employers do.

I'm lucky enough to have been able to reduce to 4 days per week and often work 1 of those from home - other people in the department (both parents and non) work part time or from home so it's not special treatment just because I'm a mother.

My role is such that I can easily manage my work / meetings etc. so not being in the office has no impact on my colleagues and I don't have any direct staff either. I get very limited phone calls and only work from home on weeks which allow it. In fact my job benefits from me working at home as I can focus much more easily on the large amount of documentation I have to produce on a regular basis.

I do however know a couple of parents who 'work from home' on inset days etc. with no other childcare in place - DH is a SAHD so any day I'm at home they are off doing things (okay I do have DD for on hour over lunch whilst DH takes a break but I also have a lunchbreak when I'm in the office so don't see the difference )

Bottom line, IMHO flexible working should be the norm for everyone not just parents and I reckon many more people will be working from home in the future.

I've just had to resign from my work, as they (a school) have (legally) dropped my pay, and I am unable to afford to work now because of childcare costs . I previously had management points/TLRs (I'm a teacher) which were on a 3-year safeguard which ran out. My disappointment (and possibly a case for me - I'm talking to my union rep about it) is the high probability that, if I hadn't taken maternity leave, I would have been promoted into positions that retained my management points/TLRs.

Makes me equally :( and at the same time.

I know this is an old thread but I had to comment. I completely agree with samandi- I'm new to this site, had a genuine need for help to handle my flexi hours and was met with patronising ignorant comments. People need to read what's being said correctly and less of the dismissive derogatory attitude would help. If you've got nothing helpful to say don't say it. People's livelihoods in a very difficult economy are being discussed, it's not a flippant forum IMO? I note the same names seem the culprits- they ought to get out more :) Tara but its true. There are some bitter miserable women out there!

Sk77 can I politely suggest that if you feel posters who have taken the time and trouble to give you advice on your other threads have been ignorant, (giving incorrect advice) and/or patronising, you take it up with them on the thread in question?

Bumping an old thread for the purpose of complaining about the response you are receiving on current threads and saying they need to 'get out more' comes across as passive aggressive and isn't good form.