lawyer MNers ... help please

[roosmoo]

apologies if this has been done before, but are any MNers or MNer partners in the legal field??
just wondered if anyone could give me an inside view of the profession - do you enjoy it, would you recommend it to someone else etc...?

i'm currently on mat leave from a phd (literature), due to start back in the new year, but not entirely sure whether i really want to....so am considering other career ideas.

any help/advice of any sort happily received!

thanks to issymum, binkie & rickshaw...

muffinchops's dilemma: what a cracking thread!
& i have to say, a great illustration of what a thoroughly scary/cutthroat world the city really is...might have worked for me (???) when fresh from uni & on the milkround - but i didn't want to sell my soul to the city then, hence the academic route, & i still don't want to now. hmm.
i guess what i REALLY want is to stay within academia. my problem is mainly to do with confidence really, & whether i'll actually be able to get a job one day...sigh.
perhaps i see other careers (law/teaching) as easier in that respect, tho after the muffinchops thread there's certainly no shortage of soul-searching & anxiety in a legal career, that's clear!

binkie, what was your phd in, just out of curiosity?? how far did you get, & how tough was the decision to bin it?

thanks again all

Tennyson, Whitman & Yeats: Varieties of the Lyric Sequence.

That probably makes clear why it came to naught. But really it was because I am not a natural academic - I used to say you needed to have a "fire in the belly" for your own ideas, and to enjoy jousting them with others, and coming up with more as fast as the old ones worked out. I couldn't keep up with that - loved the teaching, and everything that was immediate and practical, but when it came to pontificating about Whitman I'd suddenly remember how untidy my sock drawer was.

sock drawer binkie

with a baby now, i could list abt a million mundane distractions with seriously good time-wasting potential!

sounds a lovely thesis title, shame it didn't get there. loved tennyson, as a fresh-faced 1st year.
i'm (supposed to be..!) researching C18th women's writing, supposed to be currently v. trendy. i have ahrb funding to do it, which is another big push factor to get back & do it - both financially & morally, i really don't want the award to seem wasted on me iykwim.

& that's the thing, in all honesty & without wanting to sound arrogant, think i am a natural academic...love the 'fire', when the ideas get rolling, find that v. heady, a great buzz. teaching i know i can do too.
bet i'm not a natural lawyer tho, despite my wonderings abt career change...

Well it sounds to me as if teaching needs you!

What was making you doubtful about continuing, can I ask?

roosmoo, I have lurked a bit on this thread for a while and didn't want to post before because what I have to say seems so negative... from my experiences and those of my friends and contemporaries I cannot honestly recommend the law to you as a family friendly career, particularly as you are starting out. I have no doubt that you would find it intellectually stimulating, and I have to say that I loved the work, and I mean really LOVED it, for many years. I think it is possible to continue in a satisfying legal career (one that pays enough for the kind of decent, flexible child care you would need) if you are already well established in your field - but lots of women I know who do this find the compromises very exhausting and difficult. But to start out now... I really wouldn't recommend it.
Sorry to be so negative. Maybe there are lots of positive experiences out there...
BTW I am a barrister, and in the last few years worked as in-house counsel for large multinationals.

thanks HC, don't mind any negatives...would rather know people's honest opinions!

binkie (navel gazing alert...) it's just that i worry i'm not good enough, & that i won't be able to sustain a working life full of original thinking which is how i see academia. like most high achievers (re the muffinchops thread) i have pretty high expectations of myself & am maybe my own hardest critic?? does that make sense?

i've decided to go back to the phd anyway, & at least give it a go...if all goes pear-shaped, there's always a pgce!

issymum, maybe if i'd decided on law from the start (tho i'm only 24 now), it might have worked for me, i'm sure it's a fabulous career in many ways!

but with a 9 mth old ds (& a family life with dh), i guess i should be looking elsewhere. big respect to you mums that have made it tho, & still sound happy/sane!

Sorry for the hijack - but Issymum & Harpsichordcarrier, do you recommend going in-house for a more family friendly life? All the in-house counsel I know work soooo hard and the billing/target pressure seems to be replaced with other sorts of commercial pressure. I am really unsure what to do right now and facing going back to fail...

well, the lack of family-friendly options is one reason I haven't gone back to my job as a City solicitor.

I'm also not sure if you'd find enough of that "fire" in a legal career - my work was certainly intellectually demanding but it required me to be pretty cautious and risk-averse in my approach and I came to find that quite limiting.

oops! x-posted roosmoo. Good luck with the PhD

roosmoo: do I know that own harshest critic thing!! And do you know that feeling of "I have only been accepted [to whatever university/course/etc.] because I am a FRAUD (and I am about to be unmasked)?"

You have nothing to lose & everything to gain by doing your doctorate; and doing it will test for you how fertile your original thinking is. You're so young you've time for different career choices still thereafter - I have ex-academic friends who are happy in teaching (esp. sixth form colleges), literary agency work, the more challenging bits of the civil service etc. - all of which are far more family-friendly than the law currently is.

hmm that's a difficult question.. will think and post later

oooh, the 'fraud' thing ... like: 'i got this far...but there must be some mistake, i'll never keep it up!'

thanks for the encouragement, will stick with the phd, as i def owe it the effort. & it's good to know that there's a job market beyond academia post-phd (roosmum in danger of being totally blinkered & unable to remember life outside the uni campus!!).

i just REALLY hope i have a brain cell left worthy of the name, come new year...

Rickshaw, I went back f/t after both DS1 and DS2 to my firm; got equity in between maternity leaves, and I would say (wouldn't I?) stick where you are, you've no need to prove yourself there, take all the slack you think you can get away with and some more. Get a blackberry. I think inhouse in just as tough and possibly more exposed. Don't want to sound smug here off work sick today with a cold, possibly too much burning candle at both ends?

OK CLASSIC lawyer moment here - IT DEPENDS
(you have to train for a long time to be able to give that kind of commercially savvy, succinct and helpful advice btw )
I think it is possible that some in house positions make for a more family friendly environment, let's say if you wworked in a really big team, where the individual lawyers were interchangeable, with a very family friendly firm and an understanding management team.
Also, pigs might fly...
And even if you were to find that kind of position I can't help thinking that it would be deadly dull work.
In reality most in house legal teams are under continual commercial pressure to justify their budget and indeed their very existence, and of course the usual internal pressures (shareholder value etc). Anyone in a reasonably senior position in that environment IS exposed, yes, and often has to carry a great deal of internal responsibility across a wide range of disciplines (compliance, regulatory responsibility etc) often without too much in the way of the kind of admin support you generally find in private practice.
of course if you combine that with an international presence and/or management responsibilities then, no, I don't think you would notice an easing of pressure - though the pressures might be different in nature.
(btw I have given it up now to be a SAHM so not a great advert all round...)

Hi Roosmoo. Haven't read all the post so sorry if I am repeating some stuff. DH is a lawyer and I also have friends who are lawyers and see VERY different sides to it.

Eg. DH is a city, commercial lawyer - he works (far too often) 70+ hour weeks, will never get home before 8pm etc. Of course, he is paid relatively well but not sure he would be on an hours/salary basis.

On the other hand, I have a friend who is an employment lawyer who started off in the city and moved to Bournemouth, working for a big reputable firm. She works 9-6 max and loves it !

So think it does depend on what side you do.

On another hand (going on a bit here i know) I have another friend who trained as a teacher out of university, but always wanted to be a lawyer. after a few years she gave up teaching, did law conversion and LPC and training contract and hated it to the point she cried every morning but finsihed it and qualified. Then she got pregnant and went back to teaching and says its the best choice she's ever made as it fits in so well with children.

Could you try and get some work experience with both ? I knwo it won't give the full picture but it might help at least ?!

HC - you have confirmed what I thought! Issymum - I'm in employment & pensions.
Think I will go back this time and then think of something else if we have a second baby.

rickshaw, if you're currently a partner mightn't going family-friendly-in-house be a big drop? (No need to answer - just being nosy!)

More seriously I'd always had the fond idea that P&E was a good place to be in private practice - like a medic choosing dermatology (not likely to be called out at midnight). Interesting that it doesn't sound like it for you.

Issymum, thanks for that - very sensible advice! I completely agree about being upfront about the need for better hours. Otherwise it's just a recipe for tension and I AM prepared to work extremely hard and for less money.

Binkie - yes, there'll be a pay cut but if the hours are better it's worth it! Also, E&P lawyers don't earn nearly as much as M&A and other commercial lawyers (who are all over £100k at partner level I think). Plus as a partner I get no benefits (no pension, no health cover etc) and thee's often a valuable benefit package in-house.

Just wondered if anyone here has experience of in-house work in the public sector (eg local authorities) and if you can there find a family-friendly environment? All the public sector lawyers I know seem to have a reasonable work-life balance, but there are other factors affecting whether they enjoy it or not. The pay is less but not dramatically less than private practice in a small high street firm, it would appear.