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Original poster

can they just make us redundant

22 replies

MrsNortham · 15/03/2011 10:22

Hi, hoping to get some advice here, I'm a regular but have namechanged for this as I may inadvertantly out myself

Right I clean in a school 2 hours a night 5 days a week, it's not loads of money but if we didnt have it with work as it is for dh right it could mean us losing our house Sad

last night at work our supervisor told a few of us that the school was on about getting rid of all of us and employing a professional clenaing service instead as it would be cheaper as there would be no holiday pay, or sick pay

I;ve been there 5 years, and have a permanent contract with them (although despite numerous requests have not been given a copy of it)

Can they do this, I thought that they couldn't make you redundant if that job was still available

Would they have to give us a redundancy payout, we only get a months notice as far as I'm aware and I'd be hard pushed to find another job in that time Sad

tia

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 15/03/2011 11:01

I think it depends on circumstances. When work is outsourced, the new company may take on existing staff in this case I believe that TUPE applies (Transfer of Undertaking, Protection of Employment). If this is so then you would transfer to the new employer on your current terms with your current length of service.

If the new company brings in a new team then you would be made redundant.

However, in all of this I dont know what effect there is if any of you being part time.

Phone ACAS, they have a great helpline - 08457 47 47 47. Give them all the information you have, they are very friendly and very helpful.

Good luck

Original poster
MrsNortham · 15/03/2011 11:07

thanks GnomeDePlume, I had a feeling that there was a way they could get around it

I'll give ACAS a ring and see what they say Smile

Still hoping it's just a stupid rumour and hopefully it won't happen

OP posts:
Metters · 15/03/2011 12:04

Working part time makes no difference, if tupe applies then all employees are covered.

Original poster
MrsNortham · 15/03/2011 12:19

Hi, sorry do they HAVE to take on the existing staff then if the work is outsourced? That would be fine

But they could bring in a new team to do the job we are already doing...that's the bit I don;t understand how can they make us redundant if the job still exists Confused

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 15/03/2011 17:18

If they bring an outsourced team in then I dont think the job still exists in the sense that the employer is no longer employing anyone to do it.

The new company doesnt HAVE to take on existing staff. It may already have sufficient staff.

In this situation then redundancy rules would apply - statutory I think this is 1 week for each year of service plus you are entitled to your notice period

Original poster
MrsNortham · 15/03/2011 18:39

thanks that makes sense Sad

OP posts:
GnomeDePlume · 15/03/2011 19:20

I'm sorry to give bad tidings.

On the plus side some companies do take on the current team.

juneybean · 15/03/2011 19:34

As far as I was aware, the new company would then have to employ you and keep you in the job.

But I don't have HR knowledge, just previous experience of cleaning companies.

Metters · 15/03/2011 19:39

In alot of cases tupe will apply and the employees transfer to the new provider with some of their terms and conditions protected.

Why do do think tupe will not apply to you?

flowery · 15/03/2011 19:40

From what you say, sounds as though there's no reason TUPE wouldn't apply - see here includes outsourcing of a service such as cleaning.

GnomeDePlume · 15/03/2011 21:19

I think that TUPE would apply if the new cleaning company was taking on the existing staff. If not then redundancy would apply.

prh47bridge · 15/03/2011 23:21

No, GnomeDePlume, that is wrong. TUPE means the new cleaning company HAS to take on the existing staff on their current terms and conditions (and if they are subsequently replaced by another cleaning company, they also have to take on the existing staff). However, if the new cleaning company then has more staff than it needs it can make some of them redundant. The new cleaning company cannot select staff for redundancy simply on the basis that they have transferred from the old employer. It must use a fair method for selecting staff to be made redundant.

flowery · 16/03/2011 09:31

Yes exactly, the whole point of TUPE is that it's not optional, if TUPE applies the new employer has to take on the existing staff, and outsourcing a cleaning service like this is a pretty classic example tbh.

OP I imagine your supervisor isn't particularly clued-up so I wouldn't take what he/she says as indicative of what the school will actually do - no reason to think they won't take advice as to the position with existing staff as part of the outsourcing process.

GnomeDePlume · 16/03/2011 09:31

prh47bridge - I think the OP needs to get advice. When I was in a TUPE situation it wasnt that clear cut. Mind that was in a large organisation so possibly the definitions of what made a team were different.

ACAS is the way to go I think. I have used them to get advice more my own redundancy situation and found them very helpful. You dont need to be staring down the barrel of a gun to use them. Present them with the information and they will advise. It certainly gave me a lot more confidence when dealing with my line manager.

Original poster
MrsNortham · 16/03/2011 10:55

ah thanks I;ve added that linkt o my favorites to print it out later on should I need it flowery

It does sound very mich like they would have to keep us on then Smile

The only thing is one of the team reckons that out contracts are renewed on a yearly basis (in April surpisingly) and that they could just not choose to renew them and then bring in this new team

As I said above, despite numerous requests over 5 years I have not been given a copy of my contract...despite requesting it in writing on one occasion, on the phone directly to Hr, to my immediate supervisor and the lady in the office who deals with us. I can say though that I signed a new contract in September as I changed to term time only work and again asked for a copy (but it never materialised) but I did read it before I signed and it didnt say anywhere about a yearly renewel and I certainly have not had to sign a new contract every year so I'm not sure that this is true

OP posts:
tiggersreturn · 16/03/2011 11:54

Your employer is obliged to give you a written statement of employment within 2 months of employment www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/EmploymentContractsAndConditions/DG_175704 I think there is a fine of 2 to 4 weeks pay if they don't.

Notice should be in the contract. If it isn't your statutory notice would be 5 weeks based on 5 years service. www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1073792628&type=RESOURCES This would have to be given formally in writing.

Mention all these points when you ring up ACAS.

prh47bridge · 16/03/2011 15:36

GnomeDePlume - If you have a team which is essentially dedicated to a particular role (e.g. a cleaning team) and you outsource the work they do then TUPE definitely applies, even if the members of the team sometimes undertake other activities.

If there is no identifiable group of employees that have the activity as their main task TUPE does not apply. So, for example, if the cleaning was carried out by different employees every day on an ad hoc basis TUPE would not apply.

Those are the rules. Whether or not individual organisations are clued up on TUPE and obey the rules is, of course, another matter.

GnomeDePlume · 16/03/2011 16:31

prh47bridge - that's clear enough for me thank you.

Going back to the original poster's concern that she would/could be made redundant. Under TUPE the new company would have to take her on but as you say, that doesnt mean that they will keep her on.

I'm not trying to be Nelly Negative here just make sure that OP is under no illusions.

nocake · 16/03/2011 16:37

If the job continues to exist then they can't make her redundant... technically it's jobs that are made redundant, not people. So as long as the job exists the new company would have to continue to employ the OP.

GnomeDePlume · 16/03/2011 17:47

As I am writing this I am currently working out my notice. While technically my job is being made redundant, it is me who will be sending out CVs and letters of application. I find the distinction between whether I am redundant or my job an acedemic nicety.

IME outsourcing is done to improve efficiency ie cut costs. For ACME School Cleaning Ltd or whoever take over the cleaning operation to make a profit they will need to do the same work for less cost.

flowery · 16/03/2011 19:26

It's an important distinction though Gnome, not just an academic nicety - it makes a real difference to people in the OPs position.

Yes there is no absolute guarantee that the outsourced company will keep all the staff on - as you say, they may improve efficiency by using less staff or similar. But regardless of that, it's significant to the OP that she can't be made redundant personally unless her job is redundant, as she was previously under the impression that it was possible to make her redundant even though her job was still available.

BarkisIsWilling · 20/03/2011 11:16

Are you in a union of any kind?

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