NHS-being told to re-apply for job

[NHScutback]

Hello, I've namechanged.
Would appreciate some advice, and has anyone else been through this?
Have worked in the NHS for 20 years. Am at senior level, band 8.
The Trust is making 'efficiencies' and has decided that my team and another team are going to merge and numbers culled by 2/3. Both teams are going to have to compete for the 'new' positions.
Myself and the other team lead have been told there will be one management position available in the new structure and we will need to apply via regular application form and interview. Both of us are thinking sod it and neither of us wishes to enter into this process.
What would our rights be in this instance if we refuse to do this? Enhanced redundancy is 1 month for every year worked, could they reuse to give us this and just pay statutory? Would they likely offer one of us or neither the new post?
Both in a union and waiting for them to get back to us but told this could be a week away. HR tight lipped on alternatives. I understand most people just play the game and do as told.
Thanks!
Many thanks for advice.

Do you both want redundancy then? They are not going to pay for redundancy for both when there is a suitable post there, so all you really need to know is if you both want redundancy, how will they select who goes and who stays.

Have they actually said the person who doesn't get the job will be redundant? What are the terms and conditions of your enhanced redundancy pay arrangement?

This has been common in public sector for years; NHS are just catching up. Unless you would prefer to be out of a job you just have to go for it and compete against your colleagues. Not nice and very divisive.

Yes, one of us will be out of a job on the enhanced package or much worse they might try and find position for the 'loser' on a lower pay band (which is cheaper for them as enhanced pay for us is 20 months and 24 months pay respectively). Both of us would rather be passive in this process and they make the decision but they want us to compete. The atmosphere is terrible. I suppose I want to know can we insist on not competing?

Are you really sure the other candidate is really thinking "sod it"?? or are they trying to throw you off applying so they get in there first??

Sorry to sound negative but I don't trust anyone these days when it comes to situations like yours.

Can I be clear - you both actively want redundancy?

I've been in this position twice. I was expected to apply for any 'suitable' posts. If I didnt, then I was told I would not be eligible for the NHS redundancy payments. If I applied and was unsuccessful, then I would be eligible for full redundancy payments.

My advice would be to think very carefully about not doing what is asked of you. The first time this happened to me, I got the job. Last year, when it happened again, I actually wanted redundancy and luckily there were no suitable posts and I got a year's money. There are very few jobs at grades 7 or 8 being advertised (? any) and its amazing how quickly that big sum of money goes down.

If you don't apply then you are making yourself unemployed basically. They aren't going to be able to make both of you redundant because one of you isn't - there is still one job needing to be done.

NHS again Grrrrrrrrrr, sorry for hijacking you thread, only band 2(denied training/access to go further up the ladder) so not able to give you information, also been in my job for over 20yrs.
NHS must be the worst place to work at the moment for most people.

I went through this a year ago (but wanted to keep my job). If you are offered a post on the scale below then there will be pay protection for 2 years so it won't save them anything in the short term.

From my experience I would say that you have to make sure you carry out all the necessary responses in the correct time frame or you run a risk of not getting the enhanced package, to not trust anyone else to either be honest about their plans or to not change their minds, and to double-check all calculations by HR..my ex-boss was given a vastly inflated figure for her redundancy pay as HR had guessed her work history (which employments were NHS and which were not) using her c.v.rather than any official source and a colleague of mine who took vol redundancy has now found that the trust had her start date wrong by 2 years so she lost 2 months pay (she hadn't checked it).

Forgot to add, my situation was resolved as another staff member at my level took vol redundancy and another one found a new job and left...this was taken into consideration before the 'competition' part started (interviews etc) so it may be worth applying for vol redundancy now. My colleague got the same redundancy pay for voluntary as she would have done otherwise.
And i second follyfoots comments that you must apply for any jobs that are at the right level in order to prove that there are no suitable posts available, otherwise you will be deemed as making yourself jobless and get nothing.

Thanks all,
Yes we would both prefer redundancy but told that ain't going to happen. 1 out max and we can't volunteer as they want to keep "the best" person. We haven't been told who that is btw. It will be decided at interview.
There are no band 7 or 8 jobs suitable to apply for at all that are advertised (I really do mean none as they are getting rid of a swathe of band 7), unless they create one.
I've known the other person for forever and she is trustworthy. Neither of us want the humiliation of sitting in an interview room in front of the smug 20 year old general managers who (ironic enough) have multiplied by x 4 in the last year (with no added value that I can see), and lazy senior professionals and have to grovel for our jobs. it would kill us. I suppose we could sit monosyllabic in interview if we are forced to do it.
i don't know I'm sure I must appear petulant and I apologise but 20 years FFS. In a team previously considered to be essential to patient care.

However hard it is (and I know just how you feel especially the lazy senior professionals - lost count how many times I cleared up my 8c managers messes) play the game to make sure that you either keep your job or keep your rights to redundancy. Humiliating? Yes but dont lose out. Best of luck

Could they promote someone to this position instead of either of you? i.e. is the position open to all and the 'best person for the job' needn't be either of you?

We are told it's open to us alone as part of the ??redeployment agreement. Putting someone else in it would be ideal, suspect they might have to if we 'mess up' our interviews. Does make one wonder where they would stand if both of us answered each question wrongly. Knowing the NHS we would be on performance management...

If it's your two teams merging there's not going to be a question of putting someone else in and giving you both redundancy because you deliberately mess up your interview.

If two teams merge and there is only one management role it's perfectly common and acceptable to ask both team managers to apply for the job, rather than just applying selection criteria, but if neither of you want the job anyway I can understand why you would rather not bother.

I'd suggest you both write formally to your manager and HR stating that you would both prefer redundancy and as a result do not feel an application process would be appropriate or useful in their selection process. Request that they decide upon relevant selection criteria instead and inform you as to what those will be.

Thanks, we will write to them as you suggest. Both too cross to think about this calmly at the moment. Let alone put across a calm professional facade and support our juniors who are going through the exact same process, poor sods.

You do need to be v careful not to cut your nose off to spite your face, my DF went through this process recently and his TU advised if he didn't 'engage' with the process, including doing a decent interview (or at least not obviously and wilfully bad) that he could loose his enhanced redundancy package.

Sorry you are having to go through this, it is foul.

Seriously I would be very careful about putting anything in writing which might indicate you are not fully engaging with the process.

See I think any HR dept or management team with an ounce of common sense would think it completely farcical and a waste of everyone's time to go through an application/interview process to decide between two candidates who would both prefer redundancy so would welcome confirmation of that and a suggestion from the employees concerned that a more sensible process is followed.

One thing if there are lots of people involved, but if it's just between two then clearly it's far more sensible to agree selection criteria and apply them where both are seeking redundancy.

But I'm speaking for myself and I have absolutely no experience of NHS HR and senior management generally (as others have) and how much common sense is generally displayed therein...

The problem with NHS redundancy is that it so much more lucrative than almost any other scheme, particularly if you are 50 or over. Standard payoff is a month per year of employment up to certain limits, with huge pension enhancements if you are 50. That can make redundancy a really expensive option so staff 'choosing' it is much rarer than in the 'real' world