is lunch in a different city a legitimate business expense?

[hatwoman]

If I go to London for the day, for meetings, I have to buy lunch. It's never occured to me to consider it a business expense (I'm a self-employed sole trader). but today it occured to me that maybe it is. From my employed days I have a vague memory of per diem allowances for travel to certain cities - ie tax free expenses. so if an employed person can get lunch when travelling maybe it's reasonable that I can too? TIA

DH claims for his lunches relating to business wherever he is in the world.

I do not think it is tax deductible

You should claim it back, at cost, with reporting receipts.

I work within my own limited company, so it' slightly different, but I submit an expense report (to the 'business') and it is then reimbursed.

The 'cost' will come out of the business and ultimately lower total revenue and therefore corporation tax in my case (but that probably won't be the same for you as a sole trader).

I can't claim the VAT back though.

I don't think you can claim a 'per diem' amount - just the exact costs - and probably best to ensure it's 'sensible' i.e. a sandwich/coffee and not 3 courses at a posh restaurant!

Coudl you not claim it back from your client? (Depends what your contract says, probably)

I always meet my work-type friends for a 'business lunch' too if we're meeting - which also goes through the business.

thanks - logically it suddenly struck me yesterday that the difference between the cost of a sarnie at home (where I normally work) and a sarnie and a coffee in a cafe probably meets the standard of it being a cost I incur solely because of work, which is what I think it needs to be to be tax deductible.

I can't claim it from clients - costs need to be cut to the bone. Also, in a normal London day I will be doing several things for different projects - one meeting here, another there, and a trip to a university library for research.

Yes, if it's a legitimate business trip then lunch/dinner/hotel room is tax deductable and you can claim the vat back aswell.

Lunch/Dinner in your own town isn't. Lots of clients try who take mates out to dinner in a nearby restaurant claiming it was a business dinner, that's not claimable.

I've just been having a look at HMRC and there are some daft things. Apparently if I go into town to visit the bank on business then I can claim the cost of the travel. but if I pop into the supermarket for some milk while I'm there, I can't. I know it has to be a system that's not open to abuse but if they're going to have arbitary rules what's wrong with one that says that if you combine a work trip with pleasure you can claim 50 percent (or another random number).

but if you look for postit notes in the supermarket......

and HOW will HMRC ever know!

Crazy isn't it? I get mileage for going into town to bank my companies money. Oops popped into M&S and not going to admit to this.

it goes on about separating business from personal in a way that could only have been devised by someone who's never worked from home, for themselves. I estimate that a third of the ink I use in my printer is for personal use (in fact it's almost certainly considerably less but I'm one of these cautious overly honest types) but in theory I should probably buy separate work and personal cartidges and switch them over all the time. what a load of rollocks.

or maybe I should go and waste a load of money and resources (plus the petrol to get to PC World) on buying a whole separate printer. and claim the tax back.

as an accountant i can tell you that the revenue wording is that the costs should be
'wholly and necessarily incurred as a business cost'
therefore if you go on a business trip to your bank it is wholly and neccessarily incurred - if you break the journey for aprivate task it is NOT 'wholly incurred' - same with lunches etc. if you are working from your own office you may well take a packed lunch - so why would you not take one when you are working away from the office - but if you are away for avery long day it may well be not practicle to take food so you would claim a reasonable amount - verified by a receipt
to hatwoman - of course HMRC do accept fair and reasonable estimates of private proportions

Molly
but then again, Sir John Bourne, former head of the NAO always "wholly and necessarily" stayed extra days on the beginning and end of conferences AND took his wife with him on every trip. To the tune of over £200,000.00

I've argued the toss with HMRC on this
and have pointed out that if the mileage to the car park is as it is and the minimum parking time is 1 hour, no extra expense has been incurred by making good use of the hour so bully for them. They backed down.

On My ebay me page was the classic case of the Chinese meal that I won.

Let alone the £5000 in cash handed out in pubs that I got past a paye inspection

hence why we tell people that paying an accountant CAN save you money.

I always claim lunch and food when I'm travelling with work within the UK. If I go to London with work, it's a 3 hour train journey for me - so my accountant said I can claim lunch, cup of tea on train and an evening meal if I'm not reaching my home station until 21.00pm - which is generally the case. There is no way that I could take to a meeting on a long journey enough food for 2 meals that day!

If you were an employee would the firm let you claim?
When I worked away we were given lunch, dinner, and a bar allowance.

I do object to people who claim for a Starbucks on the way to a meeting that has free coffee provided though!!

Went to an HMRC workshop the other day and they said entertaining is never tax deductible, bit networking is. I asked where the line was drawn and didn't really get a straight answer, but seemed to be if there is food involved it's not tax deductible.

As far as I can see, what you need is a really vague receipt to claim against, with no breakdown of what was purchased, then you call it networking.

They also seemed to be saying so long as you don't take the piss, it's not really enquiries into.

Seabright
you are so right.
DH and I have a monthly "strategy" meeting in our favourite Chinese
for which the receipt always inclues the tip and the description is "meals"
They are not silly.

HMRC will never give a straight answer because there isn't one.
That is the EXCELLENT thing about our tax system that I would be heartbroken (and broke) if they gave up.
The UK (as against the USA whose returns I also complete) has a 'principles' rather than a 'rules' system. Which is superficially more opaque but actually much much better and more robust.
the definitive word is the end of business creativity = a bad thing.