Part time workers and full time training - is this discrimination?

[PavlovtheCat]

I am having a minefield of trouble at work since reducing my hours as part of a flexible working arrangement, after returning to work mid Aug '10 from ML. I now have two children, 1 aged 4.5 and at school and 1 aged 1yo.

I won't go into all the details of issues I have, mainly because some of it is tedious and it is a friday, and some of it is specific to my line of work so you either won't understand or might give myself away.

But what I can say is that working 8am-1pm monday = friday (25 hours) is proving impossible for any kind of development or training as it is all full day training or longer. I have already had to take up an issue relating to the expectation to go away for a week and leave my bf son behind, and that personal issue was dealt with in my favour.

But, in more general terms, after looking at Discrimination of Part Time Workers legislation, there is a requisit which says part time workers must not be excluded from training just because they work part time - i am struggling with my interpretation of this. Does this mean

a) they can offer me the same actual training as my full time counterparts, but they will have to attend full time as per training offered - and this will meet the 'not excluded from training
or
b) that they have to offer the opportunity to have the same training and development opportunities but in a part time format?

So far, I have been unable to attend any training to date at work as a consequence of my part time hours and the full time training positions.

What is your take on it ?

I'm pretty sure it means (a) - they are not allowed to decide it's "not worth" giving you the training. But I don't think they have to make it available part-time.

amum so basically, unless i accept full time training, outside of my contracted hours, then I don't have a leg to stand on, if, for example, i fail to meet certain objectives due to lack of training? Because the training is available for me to apply for if I chose to work outside my contract?

Is it mandatory training that you need to do your job or is it training that might lead to development and promotion?
I don't know the answer legally, but in my experience in my job part-timers would normally be expected to be flexible about their hours in order to attend training - particularly if it is the kind of training that might benefit them. Is it never possible for you to arrange to do a full day's training? I have to say I don't think its unreasonable to expect some flexibility on your part.

My employer paid additional childcare costs when part-time staff needed to attend full-time courses (either additional hours and/or extra days). And would consider requests for TOIL sympathetically (or score it off the next child-lurgy related absence).

Could you negotiate a way forward on that basis?

I wouldn't think they can require you to work more than your contracted hours - so would expect either additional payment or time off in lieu.
But I'd also expect the employer to exhibit common sense - i.e. not put statutory/mandatory training always on a friday if most part timers aren't in then!

omini alas, government based org, no childcare provision, or flexibility at all. a colleague had a car crash a while ago, took the afternoon off as she felt unwell/bit wobbly, was told she had to take it as TOIL not sick!

elliott The training - it is not so much mandatory, as, well the job requires a certain level of understanding/skills which change over time. They need updating from time to time. So not mandatory per se, but yes it is needed in order to be able to do my job well.

The problem is, i am flexible. I work past my hours at least one day a week. Before christmas I worked more hours to the detriment of my family life because i had to be flexible as part of my role. It leaves me with no other time to be flexible for training. If I am and work longer hours to fulfil it, no-one does my job and I end up working even more hours. As it is I have 125 hours annual leave and 15 hours TOIL to take before the end of March.

It is a catch 22. I need the training to do my job. I can't do the training without better time management. I can't have better time management while working part time.

This is just part of a wider issue along with blurring or role boundaries, expectations beyond my capabilities or employed position. Resulting in lesser work being pushed aside. I am trying to break my concerns down you see. I don't want to go in with a guns blazing you are messing up here there and everywhere. I want it formulated, concise, to the point. Which I am not good at.

Oh I don't know. Maybe they do own me

elliott I have managed to arrange one bit of training which is essential to be done over two days. It is run several times, and the formula is the same. So I am doing the morning session on one day, and the afternoon session on another day and taking the morning off. It will screw up my breastfeeding for that day, but once I can manage. This doable though as it is in-house, ie in the office. The other training is mostly 2 hours drive away, and often over 2 days.

I would guess when it comes to things like objectives, it would depend how much it was reasonable of them to make other arrangements, and how much it was reasonable to expect you to make an exception and be available. Even fulltime staff sometimes have to change their hours a bit to do training courses, they aren't always convenient, so a certain amount of flexibility is expected. And if the training is being arranged by an outside company, or for several staff at the same time, its not reasonable to expect them to run it separately on a different schedule to accommodate everyones hours. But if they are doing it internally, and have choices in how it can be done, they shouldn't be inflexible just for the hell of it.

It sounds like its part of a much bigger problem for you - I think there's certainly scope for you explaining that you need the training but can't fit it in, so how do they propose to sort out the workload/schedule/expectations?

amum not external companies providing it. And I have not at any point been advised what training I need to do my job better, or whether there is training available. However, I know, through experience that there is a training and development calendar on our intranet and I would be expected to go and identify my own training needs/be pro-active and seek permission to apply.

I am going to be arguing that I would not necessarily know that certain things had changed so would not know that I need to update those skills, if not identified, but that is probably a seperate issue altogether.

Problem with targets, I have been doing pieces of work above my level because while I was on ML it was determined that my level was now sufficient to complete this work with appropriate training. I have been told 'oh you are experienced, you can do it' and directed to do it. It has taken longer, more of my time and more of colleagues time who have 'trained' me than if I had done formal training for it. It involves doing risk assessments on 'clients' and if i mess up puts people in danger. So these took priority over other work that I was trained and experienced to do, they had to, and took twice/three times as long and those peices of work missed targets.

ok, so basically, it is a grey area.

I work for a sort of government dept (can't be more specific sorry!) and for 12 years I was part time. During that time if I needed to attend a training course, either for career advancement, development or to keep up to date, I was either paid for the extra hours or got time off in lieu. I also got paid for additional childcare if required. Some of our training was in-house and some was external suppliers and my manager was usually very good in giving me lots of notice of courses were coming up, and also if I had to say "no, sorry I just can't be available on that date" they accepted it and tried to organise something different if it was an essential course. I have been waiting for 6 years for one particular course (non-essential, but beneficial) that I have had to miss three times.

I work for the NHS. The 1st year that I was back at work part time after previously being FT before DD I missed out on a lot of training opportunities that just weren't on days I worked. I was then really slammed for it at my annual appraisal. Since then I've decided that whilst it isn't fair I will just have to suck it up if I want to carry on being employed or make any progress. Now I attend training on my days off for no pay and arrange extra childcare out of my own pocket. It sucks but I decided it was just another one of those trade offs you make for being part time.

I work part time for a sort of government dept (also can't be specific) but not reduced daytime hours, just only x days per week and a specific number of days per year. I do have to attend mandatory training which can be up to 3days residential courses. They won't necessarily fall on the days I'm working, but they will count towards the x days per year. I have to make different childcare arrangements, but I accept that. It would be impossible for them to provide the training to fit everyone's part time requirements IMO.

Agree it is a trade off. I would ask for time off in lieu of additional hours if you can't get paid for it.

I have to do a certain amount of CPD to retain my professional qualification every year. The easiest way to get it is to go to a conference. When I was part time sometimes the conference fell on my days off. I had to rearrange my days off that week, that was just the way it was and I just had to deal with it as I wanted and needed the training.

IMHO when you are part time there should be a bit of flexibility about it, otherwise managers and other staff get resentful. And to be honest people screaming discrimination, and kicking up a fuss like you are make it all the harder to get part time jobs.

I believe option a below is correct, they don't need to offer training that fits in with your part time hours as long as you get the same opportunities as full time staff.