Aspiring Lawyer, any advice please

[Marabou]

I already posted this on the "going back to work"-forum, but now thought that perhaps it would be more appropriate here..

"I'm not sure if this is the correct forum to seek advice on, but I noticed that there were a few solicitors on the board and I was hoping to get some thoughts on my dilemma..

I'm currently 22 weeks pregnant with my first baby and currently doing two jobs working fulltime in a non-legal role and part-time for a publishing company doing legal research. I completed a law degree last summer and came pretty close to securing a training contract with a City firm last autumn, but unfortunately I wasn't picked after the final assessment centre .

Now, having been unsuccesful at securing a training contract, I'm wondering if I should be applying for one now that I'm pregnant and clearly showing or if I should wait until the baby is born. Of course I'm well aware of how tuff the competition is out there, so perhaps I shouldn't even worry about this, as the chances of getting a interview in the first place are very slim. But I was hoping someone could give me some insight as to what the general attitudes within City firms are towards mature applicants, who already have children, or who like myself, are about to have them.

In an interview they couldn't (or at least shouldn't) of course formally ask me about it, but I'm afraid showing up at an interview heavily pregnant would just automatically disqualify me in their eyes.. At the same time I wouldn't want to wait almost another year again to apply, as I'm not exactly getting any younger and I know I will not be able to add any value to my CV whilst on maternity leave.

Also, while I ultimately want to work in the private sector and in a more commercial setting, I am also concerned about how I could realistically begin my career in such an environment and work such long hours with a young child. Any comments on this as well would be much appreciated.

Oh, and sorry about the rant ...

I am a solicitor at a City firm and I conduct interviews for training contracts. The fact that a candidate was pregnant would not be an issue at all and I suspect that would be true in most cases. If you were good enough, you'd get the job.

I'd have 2 concerns: 1. how you would manage the demands of a City job with a young baby and, as a trainee, a much smaller salary than someone who has been working for as long as I have (I've just gone back to work after baby No.1). It does depend which area you work in but as a trainee you're usually expected to do a range of seats so inevitably you will face long hours/weekend working at times. Do you have good childcare options to cover this? Is your partner able to work regular hours?

I obviously wouldn't ask any of this directly of any candidate, pregnant or not, but would make an assessment of how realistic the candidate's expectations of the job were - it isn't 9-5. You say you are a mature applicant so I'd be looking at how your previous experience might have prepared you for the demands of the job. This is something I'd do for every candidate, your pregnancy might indicate that you'll have a lot to juggle but as with any other applicant you'd need to demonstrate that you're up to it. And there are plenty of people who aren't visibly pregnant who have other demands on their time which they need to balance with their jobs.

2nd concern would be how likely you were to leave on qualification. Bear in mind we're not just interviewing for TCs but for our future associates/senior associates/partners. Again, this is something we assess for each candidate (not just pregnant ones!) but you say that ultimately you'd like to work in the private sector (bit confused by that as law firms are the private sector!) and you'd need to be careful that isn't coming across in your interviews.

I know you'll be aware of this, but think about where you are applying; some firms are much more family-friendly than others. I like to think that mine is fairly enlightened on this kind of thing but am still frequently horrified by some of the things middle-aged, male partners come out with!! Also even within the City there are huge variations in terms of the hours people work, so make sure you're applying to firms where you feel you'd be able to cope with the workload - you may not be bothered about the long hours if it's only during your TC, or you may want to look at mid-tier firms where you'll usually have a (slightly) easier ride.

And don't view your pregnancy negatively, from an employers point of view there are advantages to hiring someone who has their babies as a trainee: by the time you are at your most valuable to them (between 4-7PQE usually) your kids will be at older and you won't be taking consecutive periods of maternity leave like the rest of us!!

Thank you so much for taking the time to offer such a detailed response, I hugely appreciate it.

You really put my mind at ease about applying at the moment and about attending open days, different events and possibly interviews without having to feel like you are the elephant in the room (which I quite literally would be of course..). That is not to say that I'm now somehow completely at ease about the whole application process; needless to say it's no easy feat for anyone, pregnant or not! I simply mean that you truly helped me see the picture from the other side..

Luckily my husband's hours are more regular than mine would be as a trainee. Also, we will have a lot of help from the family and childcare would not be a problem (I think I was more concerned about how much time I would be spending with my son..). For several years now, I have been successfully juggling several commitments at the same time ranging from fulltime work aside fulltime study etc. I hope the many examples I have will indicate that I would also be capable of juggling work as a trainee and family life.

My apologies for the slight confusion I see I created by saying that I ultimately wanted to work within the private sector. The word "ultimately" was misleading and I meant to say that, while I understand that working as a lawyer and a mom in the public sector might offer a better work-life balance, I am more interested in the type of work commercial law firms offer...

Like you suggested, I have chosen to target the mid-tier firms in the City and tried to find as much information as I can about the culture of the firm, what is the amount of billable hours you are expected to do etc.
I hadn't actually realised that you could think about pregnancy/having a small child when still a trainee could also be a positive thing. Thanks for pointing this out! I hope if I get an interview, my interviewer will see it the same way .

A suggestion - I'm sure you will have already done this but when you are filling in the interminable application forms and answering the "give an example of a challenging situation you have faced" questions in interviews, make sure you refer to the examples you mention above about managing a number of commitments etc. The fact that you've worked so hard to get to this point reinforces how much you want the job.

You can get work/life balance (of a sort!) in a commercial law firm and to be honest the more qualified you get the better idea you'll have of where you want to work to get it. I moved firms before I got pregnant because there was no way I could have managed family life in my old firm (my husband is a partner and works really long hours so I need to be at home a bit more!). And don't forget that if you have older kids by then you'll probably find it a lot easier!

Good luck!!

I'm a trainee in a Magic Circle law firm. I have a DD, 9 and a DSS, 8. I'm currently in my first seat and love my job. But, the hours can be seriously gruelling. My first week of the seat involved two all-nighters in a row as we were closing a deal.

I think, if you were to be a trainee with a very young baby (especially one that didn't sleep through the night), you'd find it extremely difficult. As our DCs are older, it's more manageable but still involves a lot of guilt-tripping by DD who wants me to put her to bed, go to her school plays etc, which obviously I can't do if work dictates otherwise.

You'd need brilliant childcare. We have a live in au pair and DP's hours are better than mine in general, though he certainly doesn't work 9-5.

Trainees (and associates/Partners) need to put in the hours and be flexible. Work has to be your priority.

Personally, I'd wait until you have the baby before applying for TCs. If it's your first DC, it will be a big change for you in terms of adjusting to motherhood (sorry to sound partronising but having DD was a huge shock to me).

PM me if you have any questions

I think Rock makes some good points, I was assuming that you'd have had the baby by the time your TC started (I'm guessing if you're interviewing now it's for Sept 2012 at least?). You've also said you're avoiding Magic Circle, which I think is sensible as there is a difference in how trainees are treated at MC firms compared to other City firms(huge generalisation I know but it is true).

To put Rock's comments into perspective, I went back to work when my baby was 6 months old (she was pretty much sleeping through the night then). I do work pretty long hours at times, although it's a while since I did an all-nighter (like I said I moved firms before having the baby; I used to do them regularly). She is now 10 months and still has a good few days a month when she doesn't sleep - teething, colds, random viruses etc. I've been up with her almost all night and gone to work, to be honest I find it much easier to be in the office than at home, I find looking after a small baby on 2 hours sleep much harder than dealing with clients! But I am a senior associate, have had a lot of practice and can do a lot of the job without really thinking about it. I can appreciate that it might be harder as a trainee. I also have the most incredible nanny who views her job as taking care of the family and not just the baby, she is amazing.

2 of my trainee intake (at a "Silver Circle" firm, about 10 years ago) were pregnant during or immediately before their TCs. Both managed fine, with good childcare and supportive families. It can be done!

Happy for you to PM me as well if you'd like to chat more.

PS - Rock credit to you for doing your TC with 2 kids, and at MC. I know how bloody hard I worked as a trainee (and for years afterwards!) and I can only imagine how much harder it must be for those with young kids. At least all I had to worry about was the amount of weight I put on doing all my eating (and drinking!) at work!

Thank you again both for your comments and tips - much appreciated!

MrsTeddy, thanks for the suggestion on how to answer the "challenging situation"-questions in application forms and at an interview. So far I have been using examples from working life, but I think describing my wider efforts so far would also be a good way to demonstrate my commitment to a future legal career.

Hats off to you Rock first of all for securing a TC at a MC firm and for handling such a gruelling workload with young children! My son will be a little over 2 when I would hopefully start my TC, so hopefully it'll be a little easier by then in terms of him sleeping through the nights etc. Luckily I will have the chance to take a full year of maternity leave, which was very important to me, because this is our first baby. I have yet to complete the LPC as well and I am hoping to be able to start that part time in the coming autumn so that I would be able to return to work after the maternity leave.

It's good to hear that there are women solicitors out there who are satisfied in their lives both as a mum and at work. I know it's not going to be easy, but it's encouraging to know it can be done.

I know you are both very busy and please let me know if it's too much to ask, but I was hoping I could send you some examples of my application forms, when I'm ready to send them off? But like I said, I completely understand if you will not have the chance to help me in this way!

can I kind of hi-jack with a related question. I'm another one contemplating all this. not city/commercial or mc though. or even London. my dds are 10 and 8 - they would both be at secondary school by the time I started a tc. I'm aware that this has a certain attraction - no mat leaves; no nativity plays; and unlikely to want to bugger off to London (been there done that). To what extent should I bring this out in interviews? I don't want to sound like I'm trying to point score over younger women - or trying to use my private-life as a positive (when, tbh, I do thing private life shouldn;t be a consideration). There's also the personal consideration (not that this matters to employers) that it would feel like a bit of a betrayal...a bit un-feminist of me.

would love any advice.

I was on the interviewing panel for a magic circle firm. If I did one of your interviews, you'd be OK because I would fight any suggestion that your pregnancy meant you wouldn't be able to do your job. If some of the others interviewed you and I didn't (we did 3 sep interviews, there were around 9 in the panel altogether) I'm afraid some of the men would look at your pregnancy and come up with all sorts of other reasons why you weren't as good as some other (non-pregnant) candidates.

That is life. There are a lot of discriminatory people out there (even though they would deny being so and might actually believe it) and I think you have to be prepared for a higher rejection rate than if you were interviewing non-pregnant.

Sorry for the late reply and thanks again for your contributions!

I think you are right, freshmint, there will always be people, who will not see pregnant women/mothers in general as valuable recruits worth their while and that is unfortunately something we will all have to live with in the workplace... I just hope who ever interviews me is like you .. or then maybe I'll already have given birth when my interviews take place..

best of luck!

Am happy to look at your applications by the way!

I'm not a lawyer, but can relate to your situation because I trained as an accountant years ago, and have spent past 18 months at senior level in one of the Big4.

I would say that it will be very difficult for you (but not undoable). The issue is not whether you will get a job (the earlier you get the kids done with the better, as you are cheaper at the lower rungs), but how tought the job will be.

I worked in the trading side of investment banking when I had my second baby, and I started college doing a part time MSc two weeks later (having had a CS to boot), and I then went back to work full time 6 weeks later, and balanced the kids, career and studies for two years. I promise you, hand on heart, that doing all of that was much much easier than the 18 months I have just spent in the Big4. There is an expectation in the professions that you can drop everything else and jump every time the client asks, and IME there is very little regard for a work-life balance (regardless of what they may say). Obviously everyones experience is different, but IME roles where the client calls the tune are very tough when you have young kids.

Hello everyone and thank you so much for your comments. Again my apologies for not replying sooner; I've been down with a very bad flu (which just makes me wonder if I should have the swine flu/seasonal flu vaccine anyway..).

Firstly, RockinSockBunnies your help is much appreciated and I'll be sure to drop you a PM.

And StillSquiffy, my days you've gone through things I thought were impossible! Good on you for aiming high and I'm sure it all pays off. Thanks for the insight. I'm sure a career in any top professional services firm will be challenging, but I'm hoping to find a place somewhere not quite on the top but rather mid-tier.