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Grievance: Content of final outcome letter differs from what was said

22 replies

BarkisIsWilling · 28/12/2010 22:39

Hi all,

If you attended a grievance hearing where the panel called you in, set out the outcomes verbally and then gave you a differing version in the outcome letter, would there be anything you could do about it?

Also present and taking notes at said hearing was a TU rep.

Thanks, and go easy on the turkey curry Xmas Grin

OP posts:
crystalglasses · 29/12/2010 20:15

I would start by getting a copy of the TU notes to see whether they correspond with your, or the panel understanding of the outcome. You should also write to the panel, disputing the the written version on the grounds that it doesn't correspond to the verbal version and ask for their comments.

BarkisIsWilling · 29/12/2010 22:22

Thanks for responding crystalglasses.

Done all the above (bar writing to the panel). The notes show that 1 of the complaints was not upheld, and for the other, the panel found that an act complained about did take place (not intentionally, or directly they concluded, however there is no mention of this in the outcome letter.

OP posts:
BarkisIsWilling · 02/01/2011 18:10

bump

OP posts:
Heroine · 02/01/2011 18:32

Absolutely.

Whenever there is this maneouvering (or incompetence) in the proceedings, bang a letter/email straight back saying that you do not accept their version. Their duty in any case is to refer to everything that was brought up. OR you can consider just asking for them to write up their verdict on that 'act' if you want to appeal (if they then redraft and don't address this act as agreed that is ground for appeal)

I am assuming you are bringing a grievance against two behaviours/incidents you witnesses and are alleging that a) they took place b) they breach generally acceptable behaviours (or specific company guidelines) and c) that this is a pattern of something - eg discrimination, sexual harassement, bullying??

If you have complained about an act, then they HAVE to give their answer relating to the act in their outcome letter, not just ignore it, and they should match what they said verbally, but I have seen many examples where HR mysteriously (intentionally) completely misinterpret verbal communications and then claim innocence if challenged.

You have to challenge otherwise they will claim you accepted the outcome in the letter irrespective of the outcome accepted at the meeting.

If you tell me a bit more I might be able to help - some actions, irrespective of intention, if they happen, represent discrimination in acny case, and this is quite a powerful incentive for HR to hope that you won't notice that they have missed making a written acknowledgement of this action - also if say its 'he touched my ass' and they say 'he brushed past' that's one thing but if they say 'he intentionally touched your ass, but it wasn't sexual harassment' you can still take the guy to court separately.

Good luck - its amazing how HR can lack integrity and professionalism at key weak points in employer cases, but never miss weaknesses in employee cases!!

flowerytaleofNewYork · 02/01/2011 19:39

Have you written back to them yet Barkis, asking for the letter to be amended reflecting the outcome agreed in the meeting?

BarkisIsWilling · 02/01/2011 22:51

Thanks Heroine & Flowery. I haven't written back (will do so this week as letter is a week old tomorrow).

Heroine you are pretty much on the money both in your analysis of what's happening and the issues in my grievance.

I had not mentioned this previously, but this is an appeal as the investigating officer had not upheld any of the allegations I made. The panel prefaced its verdict on the first allegation with "not upheld" before going into its reasons, whereas the second one did not have that comment appended.

Have checked and panel notes, my notes, and TU rep's notes all have it that panel found that the pattern I complained about did happen (not intended or direct).

Thanks so much for your contributions.

OP posts:
Heroine · 02/01/2011 23:48

No probs! Funny how 'investigating' officers so often find against the employee - no matter how much evidence is in front of them! - good to not write back until you consult over tactics. You are right that the second should have 'upheld' in relation to it, or specifically said elsewhere. the reason employers are particularly nervous is that if this falls into 'discrimination' then payouts can be high if significant damage is proven - and each 'proven' allows unions to claim that the environment is deiscriminatory - if pushed.. so that is why you should expect resistance - but great that admitted in meeting that is a significant win.

Have you challenged impartiality of IO or picked out inconsistencies in investigation if there are any? If the IO is biased this at least should be flagged up to the union in case he/she is on any other investigations.

well done for achieving what you have done - believe me its pretty tough to convince an appeals panal unless they are nervous you will keep going - and if that is the impression you have given then all power to you Wink

BarkisIsWilling · 03/01/2011 12:49

IO is no longer in the organisation, Heroine. It is an issue of discrimination, all right, and probably why the outcome letter skirts round it.

You seem to be an employment lawyer or HR person?

OP posts:
flowery · 03/01/2011 15:22

Have I missed something? I can't see anything Barkis said indicating the IO was biased?

Unless I've missed something massive, it sounds as though the problem isn't the outcome itself, but that the letter doesn't reflect the outcome as confirmed in the meeting.

Bit early to be assigning sinister motives to the letter not reflecting the verbal conversation yet I'd say.

Just write asking them to change it, then if they refuse, or dispute the outcome despite the proof you have of notes, then at that point you have a problem and might need 'tactics' or all that. But give them a chance to amend it first!

virgiltracey · 03/01/2011 15:29

Heroine appears to me to be a disgruntled employee or TU rep rather than an employment lawyer.

flowery · 03/01/2011 15:31

Yes I was going to say I would be surprised if Heroine was a lawyer or HR person.

Heroine · 03/01/2011 17:33

:) its funny - I am not a lawyer but paralegal, and have been an HR person too - the observation about IOs often leaning heavily on the side of the employer is because that is almost an unwritten rule unless there is a whole load of technical and concrete evidence that an IO would be senseless to ignore, but even then I have seen clear evidence being completely overlooked in order to rush through a biased and pre-determined IO 'decision'- IOs are often under a great deal of side and from above pressure to return a result that senior management want - that is usually perfectly well accepted - HR make their money from the work that happens afterwards to clean up and keep these IO reports from a public tribunal audience.

Heroine · 03/01/2011 17:37

also I hate to state what is obvious to people who have been in disputes like these, that being forgiving and understanding towards the opposition gets you in more hot water than assuming 'sinister' motives does, assuming this is a mistake might mean you leave it, assuming that it is a tactic means that you a) address it, b) watch for more signs of either incompetence or 'tactics' that would disadvantage you. Same goes what ever side of these things you are on.

virgiltracey · 03/01/2011 17:52

It is not an unwritten rule that an investigating officer finds "for the employer". This is a grievance isn't it, not a disciplinary and from what Bark has said it seems to involve two employees not an employee and the employer. In the vast majority of grievances the employer will initially investigate from the perspective of the complainant. HR do not make their money from cleaning up. Again, in the vast majority of cases internal HR will be used and I have yet to meet an HR person who does not think that prevention is better than cure.

I am not saying ignore the issues, I agree that if the written outcome appears to different from the verbal outcome then clarification should be sought. But Bark will get further if she approaches this professionally and objectively.

I disagree with your approach Heroine.
I am a senior employment lawyer.

Heroine · 03/01/2011 18:07

Well senior or not, practice states a) that my view is much more representative and b) senior lawyers see a very, very small proportion of 'internal investigations'. If you contact the employment service re summary dismissals, you'll find that many small businesses call the meeting where an employee is told 'your fired' an investigation hearing and disciplinary hearing rolled into one, with the person saying 'you're fired' self-appointing as IO.

Of course this is completely against employment law, but the law only gets involved here where there is challenge.

thanks for your interest though - perhaps you can direct your skill at helping the complainant rather than point-scoring?

virgiltracey · 03/01/2011 18:27

This isn't a disciplinary it is a grievance.

I'm absolutely not trying to point score and as a rule I don't post on these threads (since flowery is usually there first doing a very good job!) but do feel that it should be pointed out to the OP that a confrontational approach of the type you advocate in your later posts is probably not in her best interests.

BarkisIsWilling · 03/01/2011 18:54

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

My next step now is to work on a letter questioning this discrepancy and see what the panel chair responds.

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Heroine · 03/01/2011 19:14

Oh for cripes sake. I advocate guarded and confrontational thinking not necessarily behaviour, because it is by not thinking confrontationally that causes people to be bemused when they have been 'nice' and helpful and then they get tripped up by what they've said (eg I worked on one case where the question 'do you think that there could be any case where the same action could have been considered innocent?' asked in an informal and friendly pre-meeting chat, was answered with 'well I supposed if the situation was entirely different or between friends it could be seen as just horseplay' was used as grounds to drop the complaint because 'the complainant admitted that it could have been horseplay', and another where the employee had had no training when others had, and the question 'do you think your manager is very busy and could this be the reason instead' was answered ' yes it could be, because its hard for him at the moment but I still haven't had the right training' affected the decision 'because the employee admitted there was a valid reason for the manager not to provide training to her'. If the HR/employer becomes concilatory, then fine, but don't assume that being nice and problem solving first will encourage them to do the same in response.

By taking an action against another employee, no matter how justified, you are often seen, especially by naive and junior HR people who see the case first, as putting the organisation under threat - not because there is a real threat, but because any action is the first step on a road which can lead to public scruitiny, so they will need to be watching their step for a while. That doesn't mean you shouldn't raise grievances - in fact raising grievances regularly allows companies to freak out less when they get them.

If an investigation finds against you unfairly, pinning down unfair actions by the IO will help pressure those making the decision to change theirs, because a) it says 'you made a right decision, but the IO let you down' so allows them to be magnanamous, and b) because it will look bad at tribunal. That is all.

You don't have to raise it in a 'gotcha' way - but pointing out that this may be the source of the incorrect decision can be very helpful.

The fact that an IO will often see any challenge as an evil threat to the organisation is well understood, it is better psychologically to hold that view, rather than to assume that an honest and decent person has come up with a conclusion that feels unjust.

Understanding accepting and managing employer bias allows professionalism. (Rather than resignation) which is particularly needed when one may be going up against an organisation who wishes to hide problems. If the organisation gives warm and sensible signals, and is positive about grievances accept this, but be on guard until final outcome.

This is a much better strategy than being nice and getting shafted by heavy tactical players. I've been directed by an HR director to effectively push an argument towards polarisation away from conciliation in order to encourage action to be dropped so I do have experience in how tactics are played.

That said, this case sounds like it has been handled well (the 'consiliation' that there is no intent is an excellent way to soften HR/management faces, whilst still maintaining liability), so I am very hopeful.

As for the IO not being with the organisation - that means cross questioning and presentation of the case at any later stages could be difficult anyway so I expect employer settling the grievance early.

Heroine · 03/01/2011 19:18

sorry that should be 'but the IOs report made that decision unfair'

flowery · 03/01/2011 22:36

"assuming this is a mistake might mean you leave it"

I don't think anyone was saying Barkis should assume it was a mistake, nor do I think she is planning on leaving it. Confused

Sorry but I'm having a hard time seeing how a lot of the stuff in your posts relate to the OP Heroine. This seems pretty simple to me, at the moment anyway, and there's no need to project all sorts on to it, unless you have a lot more factual information about Barkis's case than the rest of us do.

Problem is at present simple: letter doesn't reflect meeting. First step is to write including notes of the meeting, and asking for an amended letter to be issued. If they refuse, or dispute the record of the meeting, then think about how to take that forward. If you start projecting all sorts of sinister nonsense on to it before giving your employer a chance to put right what could be a mistake or misunderstanding you are going to come across as someone with a bit of a persecution complex. Not that I'm suggesting you are intending to do anything like that Barkis! Grin

I am finding this thread a bit baffling, it genuinely reads as though it only makes sense if I've missed several pages of posts.

flowery · 03/01/2011 22:42

oh and thanks for compliment earlier virgil :)

Heroine · 03/01/2011 23:19

A complaint has been made about another member of staff. In an investigation in verbally it seemed there was agreement that the panel overturned an investigating officer's recommendation, in fact the written (official) version differs from that outcome in a way that upholds the original investigation.

Once rectified, relax, until rectified, remain cautious. That's all. If you are concerned that correcting the employer will make them think you have a persecution complex, then just remember - what they think of you is their issue, not yours.

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