Another one for the lawyers

[joecormac]

Hello

I once was a property finance lawyer (4 yrs PQE) at large regional firm.

I left in 2006 due to v long hours (guilty mother syndrome)and sheer exhaustion. Also not really wanting to "ramp it up". Loved my team and my clients but felt out of my depth. Can also never convince anyone that I just had never been properly trained - was almost self taught (due to everyone running round like headless chickens) and was neither a proper banking lawyer or a decent property lawyer

Love my current role teaching LPC and my colleagues, but student numbers are down, my hours have been drastically cut and I am bored at home with youngest (and last) who is now 2.5 years old.

Friend called me up and told me of vacancy where she works. Have had first round interview and have been invited back for second round at firm. Locally v small but growing office, nationally a few offices. Property department will be a senior associate and me. It is for a 1 year PQE in general property - I want to be trained properly and more widely and am more than happy to start again

But but but....for those still in practice - do you get to see your kids? Do you have the guilt? Do people look at their watches if you try and leave before 6.30pm? Should I try and ride out the recession and stay put?

Bump, in hope of Sunday evening crowd

oooo hello

are you still there?

never mind. i am a family lawyer. 1.5 pqe working at a legal aid firm but doing the money/ matrimonial side. times are tough but 6.30 is considered late... i think maybe the trick is to make the grown ups the desired amount of money ( in target)and then do as you please. it seems to work for me...

i do not feel guilty. however, DH does the childcare since he was made redundant , and since that blessed moment , when he became primary carer, i have not looked back. i wold totally agree that being the "bloke" in our domestic set up ( those who do not believe in sterotypes should maybe look away now)make things a great deal easier. hope you get it sorted. :)

I do tax, but am an old gimmer (15 years PQE). The hours are long but they have become part of our lives. I rarely leave before 6.30 and am usually there until 7.30 ish. You can adapt and the family adapts too, but it's not an easy thing when they are young.

If you are going back...and I think all ex-lawyers are tempted at some time I think you have to start as you mean to go on. If you need to leave by 5.30pm thne that is when you leave. Property will be your best bet at having a normal life. Banking will not. Good luck with it.

I am currently on mat leave and discussing terms of going back at the moment. I have requested 4 days a week to try and get over the long hours and at least have a full day with my son but after a very stressful meeting today i ahve to say they are digging their heels in. I think you need to be up front and honest with them before you start and say what you are prepared to do and what you are not. Put the ball in their court - if they start saying you will be expected to work longer hours or attend networking after work etc then you will know where you stand and can make a more informed decision.

I would apprecaite advice on how you got into teaching as would love to look into that esp with the probs and attitude i am currently having with my firm at moment!

Good luck!

I think it completely depends on the firm.

At my (large City) firm the hours are often long and if you left regularly at 5.30 that would essentially be regarded as part time...

But but but it may be completely different at the firm you are considering. You should ask your friend who works there for her honest opinion. See if you can meet the senior associate you'd be working with and ask them about hours (and try to judge whether they are telling the truth!).

Have to ask - if you're putting in these hours, are income levels in excess of PM's (given that is current benchmark!) ?

Expect I will be laughed at for asking, but if so I would query the 'work to live' or 'live to work' situation (some of) you are in... (and others are contemplating)

I'm a 13PQE property lawyer. I split childcare with DH and a nanny, so I see my children either in the morning at breakfast time or in the evenings for play, bath and a story. I don't work at weekends. I can work from home sometimes, so I get to go to school plays and what have you. This works for me.

The property market is very odd at the moment. Not many transactions, and the ones that are there are hard to get over the line, mad rush to do it, many many more banking hurdles. So you might get away at 5.30 quite comfortably some times, and then be slaving away at others. Your childcare arrangements need to cater for this.

How about working 4 days a week, and accepting that you will probably tend to work on the 5th day but that's the trade for not working till the wee small hours and at weekends?

And how do you know the firm will train you any better? Training budgets generally have been cut.... I'd ask to see their collection of precedents at your next interview.

Just another thought, I was in a small team at 2PQE and when the big deals come in you really do need to put in the hours.

Hello all

Apologies - I thought no one had seen this and abandoned thread.

MLM and Mrs Pickles - I would send a speculative CV to a) the programme leaders (the head of the LPC rather than GDL etc) b) the subject leader (for your specialism) to your nearest providers. I started out when the providers were desperate for experienced lawyers, but it is more difficult at the moment as student numbers are down everywhere. However, they constantly need maternity cover and part time student cover (weekends and evenings).

Sorry to lump everyone else together - but thanks for your words of wisdom. I have the second interview this Friday.

Fridayschild - They won't buy into 4 days. Good idea re precedents...

ARGGGHHHHHH. I get irritated with indecisive people (my mum,my mil) and here I am, still unable to decide.

One last questions for those in long hours - did your kids ever turn round to you and say something that made you regret your decision?

I've done all sorts and am now a partner at a regional office of a city firm. I usually work until 6ish, but a number of my colleagues don't and leave on the dot. Of course if you are busy then you are busy, and yes I work evenings at home ocasionally. But once you have some seniority you also get others to help out when necessary.

Thanks for your response Hilda. Good to hear of someone leaving at 6ish

I think my previous firm (think national, not very good rep for how they treat their staff, has won some ROF award for being terrible place to work) has distorted my view of what is required. I used to be at my desk for 8am and would not leave before 7pm as this was when the partners began to float off. I think of that as being the norm!

My recollection of large firms is that they don't mind if you're a late starter, as long as you're a late finisher - so maybe backload your day and have a nice breakfast with the kids?
I have also worked for a mid-size regional practice and remember being amazed at interview that the office was virtually closed at 6.30pm. People definitely used to leave at 5.30 there, although it attracted some sniffiness in some teams. As long as you make target, you should be more or less OK doing shorter days in a smaller regional firm.
I am now 10PQE in the public sector and arranging my part-time working is proving hard - so it's the same everywhere in the law! (Except I do get flexi-time, so late evenings usually translate into shorter days on other occasions).

wow; im not a lawyer just looking for my traineeship at the moment. but reading these posts and some others in the past has really made me re-think about my future career plan. At the moment i have a 8month dd.

The long hours i wasnt expecting. and literally no flexiablity for your working hours!!!????

And i thought in this day and age. The law profession would be a more child/family friendly enviroment to work in.. guess i was wrong :(

Hi

It's all about client expectations, that's what you're driven by really. I'm an employment lawyer at a regional firm (I am quite senior, admittedly): many of my clients work PT and therefore there isn't massive pressure to be there all hours. However, I don't get to the office or do any work until 9.30, which really means 10.30 once I've done all the admin, team leader, crisis management stuff. I generally work until 6.30 - 7 (tonight was 7, but generally I treat Friday as Poet's Day). If a client needs me, I will work weekends, evenings, whatever, but I use remote access, blackberry, whatever it takes to get the job done. It's a heck of a lot easier in my field to do this than, say, corporate or transactional work. And of course when it does all kick off, the adrenalin kicks in and you don't notice the hours. You do have to be majorly organised re childcare and also not be tied to strict nursery hours. It's a career killer to tell an important client that you have to leave to fetch the kids: the work isn't 9-5 as you know.

I haven't regretted working FT at all. It's much easier than trying to work PT in my view. Also, you can wangle days out to go to school plays etc (esp if you are good at making your Blackberry replies look like you're sitting at your desk ).

Princess as a trainee its very hard to have the flexibility you may want. I know work flexibly, and as tiger says if the client needs you you work. When you are at the bottom of the tree (as trainees are) if your supervisor needs you, generally you are expected to stay, and often stay later than the senior people would do to make sure stuff gets done, copied sent out etc.

That's not to say that there is no flexibility, and certainly I'd be happy if the trainees I've had needed to leave for some reason doing so, provided they told me they were doing so in advance AND everything they needed to do had been done, but I'm a pussycat compared to many of my colleagues and as a trainee you get little choice. It gets easier as you get the senioirty and independence.