Radical Feminist or just Feminist?

[msrisotto]

The social Marxist feminism thread starts off by saying Mumsnet has a radical feminist flavour and this has stuck in my mind so I thought I'd gauge your opinions.

What makes a radical feminist versus what makes a more pedestrian(?) feminist?

I mean, this person is wrong because there are loads of us feminists on here, all with different opinions on different aspects of feminism so to call us, as a group, radical is a generalisation. But I'm interested if I might have been included in their idea of a radical feminist!

So, what is one? What radical ideas do they have?

[MitchyInge]

my only feminist roots are Dworkin at an impressionable age, she was definitely a radical

not sure if I am or not, or if it is even a helpful distinction? think we should be looking for and promoting common ground rather than lapsing into disputes about lipstick or whatever

[sethstarkaddersmum]

great, I was thinking of starting a thread asking 'are you a radical feminist or a liberal feminist?'
not sure which I am.... does anyone know of a good definition?

[MitchyInge]

are the liberal ones the ones who think feminism about choice, including the choice to adopt behaviours that are rooted in oppressive historical beliefs?

[sethstarkaddersmum]

I know Naomi Wolf is a liberal feminist in 'Fire with fire' because Sheila Jeffreys (a radical) says so in 'Beauty and Misogyny'.

I am probably a radical as long as that doesn't mean we want a violent revolution.

[msrisotto]

I was thinking that Mitchy, is it a helpful label?

[MitchyInge]

I dunno, was just a thought

personally think am erring on the side of radicalism because any other approach just seems to end up with us pretty much back where we started, if not worse

[sethstarkaddersmum]

interesting q about whether the label is helpful.
I think it's probably a better idea to say 'Hello I'm a feminist' rather than 'Hello I'm a radical feminist' but knowing that there are different positions that are all feminist and where you fit into the picture can be helpful.

[MitchyInge]

think it would help provide framework for what sort of action might best suit you and where your feminist energies might want to go

would like to know more about these things too

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Probably way off the original meaning here, but depending on your background what might seem pretty tame to some of us would be radical for others. So for me the idea of going to university has always been open, no-one ever thought of telling me to forget it because I'm female. But I know other women whose families were dead against it, thought it was a waste of time when they would just get married etc etc. So they are being radical in rejecting that idea of themselves as purely domestic with no "outside world" potential? Is this making any sense? It's been a long day...

[msrisotto]

Dittany, I wonder if it is common knowledge that the radical part refers to going to the roots etc? I didn't, I associate radical with extreme.

Elephants - You make perfect sense. They might be seen as radical feminists for going to uni but i would say their families are radical/extreme sexists for having the opinion that they shouldn't I suppose the sticking point for me is, is there such thing as having radical desires for equality? It sounds silly when it's the sexists that are being extreme.

Oh don't worry Prolesworth, no offence taken at all, you just got me thinking! I hate people who try trip others up in arguments by picking up on generalisations they know no one is making, it's just a way of talking. I don't want to make conversation stilted by getting everyone to qualify EVERYTHING with (I know not everyone falls under this category blah blah blah).

[Pogleswood]

"The main difference between radical feminism and liberal feminism is that radical feminists want to overthrow the whole system of patriarchy whereas liberal feminists want to work for reform and equality within the system as it stands."

According to this I'd be liberal then.
Reading Dittany's post here,I can easily understand "what working for reform and equality within the system" might mean,and visualise an end result - reading about overthrowing the system of patriarchy I think,yes,good idea - but I cannot visualise what overthrowing patriarchy would mean,how it would be achieved,or what the world would look like afterwards.Is this just me?

[MitchyInge]

I think a radical mindset that finds liberal expression is what would work for me, as is just too easy to alienate the very people who need to be influenced/educated if the radical message is just too far away from their existing beliefs or understanding of the issues

you do have to sort of meet people where they are already at and start from there, most men (understandably) and some women will just hear 'all men are rapists' and be repelled and even less likely to take feminist views on board

[MitchyInge]

(even when 'all men are rapists' is not what is said)

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

TBH I don't even know what type of feminist I would be under those definitions. But I can think about that when the daily grind of battles is won. When "women bishops - more trouble than they're worth" is not an acceptable topic for a bbc debate. When women can walk the streets safely. When the pay gap is closed. Etc etc etc etc etc etc. I know it matters to some people the framework in which these things are happening, but I just want them to happen. I am willing to fight for them (metaphorically), but I don't want to have a massive violent upheaval - women always lose out when things get violent anyway. I just want to eradicate the nonsense that is sexism.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

TBH I don't even know what type of feminist I would be under those definitions. But I can think about that when the daily grind of battles is won. When "women bishops - more trouble than they're worth" is not an acceptable topic for a bbc debate. When women can walk the streets safely. When the pay gap is closed. Etc etc etc etc etc etc. I know it matters to some people the framework in which these things are happening, but I just want them to happen. I am willing to fight for them (metaphorically), but I don't want to have a massive violent upheaval - women always lose out when things get violent anyway. I just want to eradicate the nonsense that is sexism.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Sorry about that. Meant to say also msrisotto that you are right. Sexism is extremist bullshit. The idea that people are basically people, with individual differences that you have to actually ask them in order to find out about, rather than guessing based on physical attributes - that should be common sense.

I want sexism to be regarded like phrenology, that thing where doctors thought skull shape influenced personality. Outdated and embarrassing.

[sethstarkaddersmum]

I love Elephant's phrenology post, and what a glorious, glorious idea about museums of sexism.

[foreverastudent]

I often think of what feminists of the future will think of us now.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Is it worth it if we don't live in the area though? Councils barely listen to their own constituents IME

Love the museum of sexism - it would be a great installation for someone to do. Is there an international women's week or something? I know there was women's day back in....april.