Just finished jury service on terrible DV / rape case

[TheMoistWorldOfSeptimusQuench]

And we managed to convict on only 7 of 17 counts of rape and sexual assualt.

This is "good enough" in that he will serve a (probably quite lengthy) custodial sentence. In fact the judge said that he was considering an 'indefinite sentence'.

The psych report (that we heard after the verdict had been delivered) confirmed that he is a "very dangerous man", who probably won't respond to therapy (because he can't cope with anyone directing him - whole of the evidence pointed to him being a total control freak who managed every move his girlfriends attempted to make).

My question is this: This was an extreme case, with piles of evidence pointing to a guilty verdict. But still we could only convict on a minority of the counts. Seeing what this man's victims went through, how lives have been destroyed, how horrific it was for them just to get this to court, how even then, some people still didn't believe them, and of course, knowing how few rape cases even get to court - how could the legal system improve on its dealings with these crimes? Do we need some kind of exceptions to the usual rules to deal with these cases? What the hell can the legal system do?

Because after this experience, however traumatic the experience, I really don't think I would put myself through it.

And that's terrible isn't it?

what I meant by justice not being the issue, I mean you can't compensate or put victims back where they were before the offence - unlike more tangible losses

it must be very satisfying to see your attacker successfully prosecuted and properly sentenced though, it must help

I'm glad he is in prison

that seems a lenient sentence for raping a child doesn't it?

wish we had statutory rape for sex with young people

isnt it!! It wad awful the testimony against the girl, flirtying with him, leading him on, etc. absolutely horrific!

(any age below age of consent I mean)

if she'd been one year younger her behaviour and consent technically shouldn't even be an issue

argh it is so depressing

I almost agree but what happens with a 15 year old boy and a 14 year old girl scenario? it is legally rape (I think) but there is a very real possibility that it is what she wanted.

it's not legally rape unless she is under 13

and we have (or had) 'young man's defence' which was (maybe still is?) anyone under 21 or 25 I think for sex with underage girl

I mean it's not automatically rape

we don't have that statutory rape thing in England

i thought that they wouldn't prosecute if those underage were of comparable age. but at under 21 or 25.

might be 23

yeah is high isn't it? someone must know current situation

did read early drafts of the 2003 act but don't know what finished product in force is

i always thought we had statutory rape laws. have just googled but cant find anything definite.

we haven't

that is a US thing

don't remember ever hearing any serious suggestion of having them here

I could be wrong but don;t think I am

would be in sexual offences act 2003

should be online

if child is under 13 then consent not a factor

suppose that amounts to statutory rape but is not called that, is rape of a child under 13 or assault by penetration depending

I'm not at all saying that rapists shouldn't be put in prison! God no. They really, really should. I'm just doubtful of the possibilities of rehabilitation.

You see the problems wth believing the rape victim/witness is simple.

Over the last decade - just grabbng a time span- there have been more false allegations of rape than there were say 25 yrs ago. The women who have made false allegations have basically buggered it up for those who are genuine.

It was hard enough previously but now things are harder - especially when you look at the recent news where children as young as 8 are making false allegations to avoid getting in trouble.

Rapists like homosexuals, hetrosexuals, bisexuals and paedophiles are born this way.
I truley believe it is in their genetical make up.
I don't think they can honestly help themselves in most cases.

I know many will disagree however there are some who do do this for a power struggle, preying on the weaker sex (as women are seen in most cases) but many just cannot help themselves.

Blimey LadyEvenstar, are there figures supporting that assertion (about the increase in false allegations?)

Cannot help themselves, how? You're right about the fact that many won't agree, I think. I certainly don't. I would agree that it seems likely that many men who are rapists have extremely troubled backgrounds but 'can't help themselves' - do you really mean that?

You might, I suppose, be born with a lower threshold for a violent/angry reaction; more likely, you might learn lower thresholds from your early childhoods. But I really don't think that rapists cannot help themselves.

please don't make the terrible low conviction rates the fault of women - bad women messing it up for the deserving complainants

the problems are so much deeper than that

it's an awful perception that the actions of a very very small minority of women somehow reflect a female flair for duplicity more generally, I just don't accept that there are enough truly false or malicious allegations of rape to in any way compare with honest ones

there are genuine cases falsely labelled false and real victims even prosecuted and convicted while the rapist walks free, it's really not a helpful angle to view this from

I do actually know of someone who made a false claim of rape. I worked with her friend, who came in one day all battered around the face and body and said she and her friend had been out on the SAturday night and when they left whatever drinking place they'd been in, they got chatting to a group of lads and then were bundled into a van and raped. This was all taken seriously (girls about 18), people were arrested, there was going to be a prosecution when suddenly it fell apart. Transpired that the girl I worked with had been raped but the other one hadn't - she just said that so her Dad wouldn't be angry with her. ONe could even say it was partly her fault that the girl I worked with had been raped, as her consensual sex with one of the blokes implied that the other girl would be "up for it" as well. All were drunk of course - but the damage to this girl was evidence enough of a struggle and no consent!

Because of the first girl lying, the whole thing fell apart and no one was convicted of anything (although I think she got some kind of punishment for wasting police time).

God, snark away 6%TrueJedi, you are right. It seems an amazing coincidence that the level of "seriousness" of rape corresponds exactly with "whatever helps out men at the expense of women". So when it comes to having a national 24 hour rape crisis line, it's not important enough to get government funding. But when it's John from next door up in court, it's far too serious a word for what he did to his ex-girlfriend.

Sorry for what happened to you, RespecttheDoughnut, and all the other women on this thread who have been through this.

RTD - probably what makes you uncomfortable about the "destroying men's lives by convicting them of rape" thing, is that it expressly values a man's right to freedom above the rights of women to go about their lives without being violently assaulted.

I mean, you've got Kenneth Clarke expressing this view unashamedly in the house of commons just last month. He is putting an argument for why men accused of rape should be permitted anonymity (a protection given only to children under current rules). He says:

"We shall also have to consider the arguments on the other side, where a woman can make an anonymous complaint, the man can eventually be convicted, after going through a long and probably rather destructive ordeal, and the woman retains her anonymity as she walks away, with her ex-boyfriend or ex-husband left to live with the consequences." - He is saying the conviction of a rapist is a bad thing! Am I going mad, or aren't criminals supposed to live with the consequences?

Maybe he meant that men who are wrongly accused - of which I would think there are very few in comparison with the number who are justly accused but get away with it for all the reasons mentioned here.

I would be interested to know how male rape victims fare under the "witness" system - are they taken more seriously because they are male? And because men consider violation of other men to be so much worse than that of women, seeing as how so many men view that this is women's purpose in life, to service them (in some it is more subconscious than conscious belief)