Is fulfilling the stereotypical 'female' roles necessarily oppressive?

[DSM]

Following on from another thread that I don't want to hijack..

If a man in a relationship is simply not as good as a woman at a certain task (lets choose ironing) what should she do?

The ironing must get done. Should she do it herself, and risk creating an environment where is becomes 'expected' that this is her job? Does she try to 'teach' the man to iron? If she does, surely its akin to a man trying to tell a woman what do to, something that is considered sexist? Or should she wait and expect him just to learn himself, leaving the ironing undone? If she chooses this option, should she nag at him to get on with learning?

I am just posing the question that because a woman does the majority of the household work, because she wants to not because she has been told to, is that still feminist opprression? I don't think it is, but am open to debate.

I don't think it's oppressive, once there's reciprocity. I iron, you hoover, I cook, you wash. There needs to be a fair distribution of tasks, and once there is, it doesn't really matter who does what.

But what I would look out for is a man deliberately being bad at something just to get out of doing it. There needs to be good faith in negotiating the sharing of the work.

Okay, ironing was just an example, could have been anything.

Your final paragraph is my point, really. If a woman prefers to be more in control of the household chores, is she oppressed? Is it anti-feminism?

Not being good at housework isn't a reason not to do it, but it is a reason to just do it yourself (IYKWIM). My DP isn't great at certain things, just isn't as good as me really, so rather than have him do it then give him a hard time that it's not to my standard, I prefer to do it myself. I am far from oppressed.

As much as I agree that if a woman is doing everything and the man is choosing not to help - ie sitting back watching TV, and she is unhappy, then yes, this sounds an oppressive relationship.

But where both parties work, and the woman still does the majority of the childcare/household chores (I don't mean all, I mean majority) but everyone is happy, why does this instantly mean the woman is opressed and the man is a chauvenist pig?

I think there are problems when two people have different views on how much and how often chores need to be done. This can be the woman or the man so an agreement should be made about this.

May I give a man's opinion here without being accused of "throwing my weight around" or "vomiting on the table"? Just wanted to check first.

Yes, please!

Even feminists want to live in clean tidy homes.

I think the key to this is expectation. I think expecting anyone to do anything because they are a certain sex is a problem. My feminist views make me resist that assertion. I would not want someone to expect me to do some aspect of housework simply because I am a woman.

It depends on the household. A couple could allocate tasks on the basis of GENUINE ability (no faking of competence or incompetence allowed!!!) I would hope that turns out to be 50-50. To help with fair assessment, perhaps a system could be adopted similar to the independent assessment of task complexity and responibility that I had in my job at work.

I don't think a teacher telling a learner how to do something is oppression, as long as it is done in the spirit of developing the learner to help them reach their full potential. Men have more often told women how to do something but with strings attached e.g. man teaches woman just enough to drive "her" old banger car that will get her as far as the supermarket to buy their food, but he sets limits, not letting her drive "his" flashy luxury car down a nice country lane or on the motorway.

If a woman does the majority of the housework because she wants to, I'd ask why does she want to? If it became clear that she had been brainwashed or forced into wanting it, that would be an example of oppression.

Okay... DW and I both have jobs we hate - we don't try and pretend we are no good at them, we just admit we hate them. For her they include the bins, the lawn and the cooking. For me they include the hoovering, the dusting and the beds. There are other things which either one or the other of us will end up doing by default. The rest we just share. It doesn't work out that we divide 50-50 in any given week, I expect, but over the course of the year I expect it does...

It's worth saying that, equally, there are things which women of my acquaintance will pretend to be stereotypically girly and "useless" at when they could just learn them, but they would rather a man do them because that's easier - stuff to do with car engines, computers, electrical fuses and light-bulbs, for example.

We (DH and I) acknowledge that we are better / worse at some things. However, the reason he is better at fixing things and I am better at tidying up and making things in the house look nice is because that was how we were socialised as children, undoubtedly. We're both willing to let some things go and just accept our strengths and weaknesses (he lugs out the rubbish because he is stronger than me, I do DD's hair because he is rubbish at plaits!), but on some issues we have both had to get better at stuff we arent good at/dont like. He was crap at cleaning (I mean, seriously lame), but has made an effort to clean to a decent standard over the years and is now capable of giving the bathroom a good shine . Likewise, i have learned over the years how to out a piece of Ikea furniture together (albeit badly!].

In terms of childcare, from the word go we took turns with nightfeeds and nappy changes and I am so glad we did. Our children are lucky - they have two interested, capable adults in the house who can both do a 10 second nappy change, take the kids temperatures, whip up a healthy meal etc. When I was a child my dad panicked if my mum had to stay away overnight (on about three occasions in our whole childhood, I think). He had no instinct and no skills for child rearing. Not good.

UnquietDad, my father is hopeless at computers. Sorry, I can't write more right now because I have to go round to my father's house to fix his computer. Absolutely true I swear.

Oh, lots of men are hopeless with computers, I'm sure. And I can't do much that involves "lifting the bonnet"...

When I did something badly (like ironing) my mother always used to tell me that I needed more practice. Perhaps men who don't iron or clean as well just need more practice, and some women just need more practice with their car engines or whatever it is.

When I first met my dh he didn't know how to cook at all, and could barely boil an egg. Now he makes his own pizza dough, does a lovely bolognaise and has even produced some chinese dishes. I, on the other hand, have learned how to wire a plug and cultivate strawberries. We both just needed to be shown how to get started and then get some practice.

I agree that many women don't necessarily CHOOSE to do the bulk of the housework, it's just that they have been conditioned to think so.

Actually most men (or people) can't do much more than lift the bonnet nowadays. Technology means that all but the really oldest cars require a computer to sort out anything not really basic.

I think a lot of women won't "let go" of their responsibility for the housework because women are still judged for how their houses look in a way that men aren't. It's all very well telling women to lower their standards and put up with the more slapdash approach of their DP, but when their MIL walks in and raises her eyebrows, the fact that they rationally know it's all bollocks, doesn't mean that they aren't emotionally affected by the negative judgements that are made of them.

I do - 50% cooking, all washing, I iron if the mood takes me, if not we go out in wrinkled clothes

I don't tidy and hate washing up.

He does - 50% cooking, all tidying, all washing up, no laundry, will iron something if he wants it doing.

But I still silently curse him as I empty the bin as it is a 'man's' job...

It's social conditioning.
My grandma was a shit housekeeper (worked FT, grandad was a SAHD after the pit closed)
My mother was a shit housekeeper.(worked FT, father was a SAHD for a while)
I am a shit housekeeper. I am a SAHM. Erm...

LOVE the kids. BUt I just don't see dirt, unfortunately. It's been a PITA most of my life.
I do try to see it, though, and I don't let DH do loads of housework

"But where both parties work, and the woman still does the majority of the childcare/household chores (I don't mean all, I mean majority) but everyone is happy, why does this instantly mean the woman is opressed and the man is a chauvenist pig? "

The problem ,if they both work yet she does the majority of the household chores,is that it isn't fair!
I can see why the man would be happy - but why is she happy? Why wouldn't she prefer to spend time on something other than housework?
Most housework is not rocket science - if you can hold down a job,drive,etc you ought to be able to manage a little light ironing,and sorting the washing.To a level that doesn't require it to be done again by your partner because you have only ironed the back of DS's school shirt

It's reasonable to share jobs according to ability and preference - it isn't reasonable for one partner to do the lions share because the other can't/won't learn.

THe easy way to check whether the division of chores in your home is fair is to work out how much chore-free time each of you has. If you both work outside the home, the chores should be divided about 50-50, if one partner is the SAHP then that person may end up doing more housework especially if DC are in nursery/school for some of the time, but that still doesn;t mean the SAHP is on housework duty 24/7 while the WOHP works set hours then comes home and does no housework but sits happily watching the SAHP do it all.
Thing is with ironing is it's one of those jobs that can mostly be lived without - buy polo shirts for DC school uniform, don't bother with the rest of clothing. If the non-ironing partner wants work shirts doing then that person either needs to learn to work the iron or purchase work clothes that don't need ironing.

D'you know what really fucks me off SGB? The fact that most secondary schools won't allow polo shirts, thus making either wrinkedness or ironing a necessity.

But then, most schools are still stuck in the 1950's vis a vis women.

All the non-academy state schools have polo shirts and hideous baggy "sweatshirt" style jumpers in our city. I think they look horrible.

"But where both parties work, and the woman still does the majority of the childcare/household chores (I don't mean all, I mean majority) but everyone is happy, why does this instantly mean the woman is oppressed and the man is a chauvinist pig? "

I have yet to come across a household where both partners work and the woman also does most of the household chores/childcare and is happy with that situation.

Many women may put up with that situation, because trying to get their partner to do more of the housework/childcare is a struggle. Doesn't mean they are happy with it.

For example. My DH and I both work FT. He does more of the housework. He puts up with this, because he "notices" dirt/mess more than I do, and he doesn't like nagging me. However, I'm sure he would be happier if I did a bigger share.

They look less horrible than clothes that are supposed to be ironed but aren't, though UD.

HB: Ah, as my DS is only 5 I didn;t actually know that. Mind you, should it happen in our house the options will mostly be: Hanging up wet shirts so the creases drop out
Teaching DS to iron
Teaching DS not to give a toss about petty things like unironed shirts anyway.

(Actually I don;t mind ironing, and do indeed perform it every few weeks or so usually when there is a danceout coming up and I need a clean ironed shirt/trousers - but the idea of having to do it constantly, no thanks.)

I no longer hate ironing since I bought one of those fuck-off power iron things. [Stepford wife emoticon]

HerBeatitude,I love the idea of a fuck-off power iron! Glad you are happy with it....!