Sexism and Racism - comparable?

[msrisotto]

What the title says really. I have compared some facets of sexism to racism before (on a different forum) and have been shouted down with disgust as the two are not comparable and it is offensive to compare them at all. Do you agree?

I happened to be thinking about weddings and the giving away of the bride and comparing it to slavery of black people back in the day as it is akin to owning people. Was I morally wrong?

Well the myths around gender have been around for a lot longer I suppose.

Racism was only invented with the advent of slavery, xenophobia with the rise of the nation state. Both of which are far more recent than patriarchy.

One of the ways that I saw sexism and racism play out most starkly was during the American Presidential election in 2008.
When candidate Hilary Clinton was speaking at a rally some man shouted out "Iron my shirt!" and the press pretty much laughed about it, Clinton was told that she'd have to be tough if she wanted to be in politics.
I said to a friend that if it had been candidate Barak Obama speaking, and a man had shouted out "Pick my cotton!" - that man would have been ostracized by those with him, criticized by all but the most rabidly rightwing and racist press, and possibly arrested.

I think it's harder to point to sexism and explain it as systematic oppression, than it is to point at racism and say "this is systematic oppression" - party because everyone knows that not all black/white/hispanic/jewish/x people are "like that" but yet will still say "oh but women ARE more emotional/less rational/more bitchy/less willing to work/xbehaviour than men!" in a surprised tone when you challenge them. People still believe the myths about gender as if they were true, because we're less good at clearly delineating when and how things are sexist.

And yes, possibly because sexism has been around for longer and is deeper ingrained, it is more accepted. Has anyone read "A Brief History of Misogyny, the world's oldest prejudice" ? That's a cracking good book.

Good post Blackcurrants.

In fact, there was that cartoon of Barack Obama with some watermelons (can't remember in what mag) - which plays up to racial prejudice apparently, and I think there was a big fuss about that. Not saying racism is better or worse of more damaging or whatever than sexism - they are both just shit basically - but there is a greater sensitivity to racism in UK/US these days, for definite. I mean sensitivity in a good way btw.

sAf - and not many people stand up and say that witch hunts were one of the greatest mass-killings in history, and unquestionably a sexist phenomenon (yy some men died too, but nearly all victims were women)

or more damaging

I don't think there is a hierarchy of oppression, but I
agree that sexism can be 'joked' about in a way that thankfully is seen as inappropriate for racism.

It may be completely mad of me, but I find myself furious when I see children being separated by gender for competitions at school or on tv. Why are we still encouraging boys and girls to do this, we'd never make this split along perceived racial differences?

And also, what's the difference between drag and the whole minstrel thing?

wahwah - v. good point about drag queens.

It is taking the piss out of women

I'm not so sure, on Drag Queens. I think they parody the constructs of femininity (the big hair, the silly restrictive clothing, the heels, the paint) rather than women. Oddly I think Drag Queens can be subversive - they can say "Look! I do all the things that society requires women do... so does that make me 'feminine' then?" - I think sometimes it can be an interesting way of thinking about what we believe constitutes correct gender appearance.

That said, I do get jealous of their lovely, fat-free thighs! ;)

I don't really know. As a black woman I experience both sides to it. Not sure which is worse, i would rather not have to deal with either.

hmmm. Am willing to buy that argument blackcurrants. Drag queens are a whole thread really, aren't they.

mmm..racism or sexism??
The term ?ethnic minority? may encompass a wide rage of perspectives and experiences, so I cannot speak for all these adequately but being black is associated with histories of racism, slavery, colonialism, oppression, racial inferiority etcetera. Many commentators on racism tend to focus on black men as a unique experience. Yet, as a black woman, all the negative stereotypes are further compounded by sexism and misogyny from both white men and black men.

I agree with your last point, swallowedaAfly, about identity; with whom would a black woman identify, a white woman with whom one shares gender affinity but may associate with racial prejudice, or the black, sexist man (Obviously not all white women would be racist and not all black men would be sexist).

Apologies for the rather long post.

Perhaps it is to do with proximity to privilege.
Some of the things that have been denied to certain races by following slavery, colonialism etc are the same things like women have been denied too. But if a woman lives in the same house as a man she is perceived to benefit from the privileges that he has.

OK, not all marriages are like this now, but:

He has his name - she is allowed to use it (forced in fact)
His name bears a family history, which becomes hers (and erases her own - where is the marker of multi-generational women's history)
He has a good job, and she lives off the salary (while dependent on his goodwill for every penny that she spends and having no control over the type or amount of work that she must do)
They can decide where and how they are going to live because he is qualified and entitled to work and buy / rent property anywhere (but traditionally a male head of the house makes all these decisions)

I know times have changed, but I think something lingers on from all this - not least among some women a difficulty with challenging the status quo because of a sense of what side your bread is buttered (not within a marriage so much as within society)

Racism and Sexism are both systems of inequality and discrimination. Feminism and Anti-racism are partly to do with examining and exposing systems of power, so there are a lot of similarities.

Just wanted to pick up on an earlier comment:

And people don't have gender reassignment surgery to escape discrimination (AFAIK) - the fact is that people who have had gender reassignment surgery are, I'm sure, more likely to be discriminated against than either men or women.

A man or a woman who has undergone gender reassignment surgery is a man or a woman. This comment is written as if they are something other. I don't know if you know of the term 'cisgender' which is when you are born the same sex and gender. So the last sentence of the comment above would make sense if it had been written 'more likely to be discriminated against than either cis men or cis women.

There are actually some fairly obvious genetic differences between the sexes. If you gave a scientist a few DNA samples they'd be hard-pressed to determine the race of the people involved, but pretty certain on the sex.

So in theory there is much more basis for treating men and women differently than treating people of different racces differently, because there is actually a real difference between them.

(playing Devil's Advocate obviously)

I'm so glad you added the second comment trilliAnasTra as I couldn't even think of a response to the first

trilliAnasTra wrote "There are actually some fairly obvious genetic differences between the sexes. If you gave a scientist a few DNA samples they'd be hard-pressed to determine the race of the people involved, but pretty certain on the sex."

Those scientists should carefully consider various intersex conditions that occur on the chomosomal/DNA level before they come to any "decision".

There are people who have been raised from birth as female and treated unquestioningly by everyone as female, yet they have XY chomosomes (genetically male). There are other people who have been raised from birth as male and treated unquestioningly by everyone as male, yet they have XX chomosomes (genetically female). Gender is even more of a social construct than most people realise. Medical science recognises a whole spectrum of physical outward appeareance/DNA combinations.

HerBeatitude wrote "Racism was only invented with the advent of slavery, xenophobia with the rise of the nation state. Both of which are far more recent than patriarchy."

Slavery has been around since at least the start of recorded history, and if I understand you correctly, by your logic therefore so has racism.

Whether patriarchy was around long before slavery, who can say?

Thankyou Sweetdreamer for talking sense.

Actually trilli, it isn't so simple as XX and XY. There's XXY and XO, androgen insensitivity syndrome etc etc

Educate yourself:
www.medhelp.org/www/ais/21_overview.htm
www.livestrong.com/article/70527-intersex-problems/

When facing racism you can say 'this is wrong because people of different races are not fundamentally different'.

When facing sexism this is harder because in the majority of cases there is a difference between any randomly chosen man and a randomyl chosen woman. Then we have to make the case that even though these people are different, they are of equal value and should not be treated or respected differently.

If you visibly do not belong to one of the 'standard' combinations of genes/self-identity then I imagine you have far more issues of bigotry to deal with than just standard sexism. If your differences are 'invisible' then sexist people will treat you however you appear to be.