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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The "so what can we actually do" thread...

547 replies

ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 17:18

Hello

Following on from the thread about changing the law on rape to grant anonimity to the accused, a few people have started to think about what we can do to get involved, to actually try and change stuff.

So I guess this thread is for suggestions, ideas, and for people to link up to actually try to change things.

So far we have someone possibly standing for pariament!

So come on everyone.

What's the plan....

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ImSoNotTelling · 27/05/2010 21:07

petitions!!!

I am not convinced that anyone pays any attention to them len

Or am I just in an ultra-despondant defeatist mood due to reading all these articles, the case with the 8yo girl and the ear-pus.

I keep on signing though!

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LeninGrad · 27/05/2010 21:09

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YouCantTeuchThis · 27/05/2010 21:11

hi folks,

read half the thread but I will have to come back to the rest.

Just adding a thought on getting young women aware and involved. YWCA GB and YWCA Scotland tend to do campaigns, generally led by the young women themselves, and around feminist issues. Some areas are far more active than others - I know Scottish HQ had a great team of young women who led on a Body Image thing a few years back.

Young women are a huge help in campaigning, particularly as they tend to have more 'disposable' time on their hands!

They also have links into excellent women's networks to further the petition and the campaign.

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 21:14

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ImSoNotTelling · 27/05/2010 21:20

You are all right of course, I am just in a miserable defeatist mood.

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Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 21:21

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Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 21:21

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YouCantTeuchThis · 27/05/2010 21:27

Proles - Joan B may still be in the Scottish HQ. She would be great to advise as she is very well-connected and bloody lovely to boot!

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 21:29

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umf · 27/05/2010 21:38

Wow, ISNT - it's coming out of your ear?? That sounds naaaaasty.

Can't tell you how much it cheered me to find this thread.

Can I help with an "I believe you" campaign if one gets going? I'm not good at website/poster design but can do content. Did the writing for this.

ImSoNotTelling · 27/05/2010 21:40

thanks proles for the sympathy

I am tanked up to teh eyeballs on penecillin. The doc looked down my throat and recoiled in horror. Then last night my eardrum went pop in the middle of the night and it has been dripping ever since. I won't tell you what my mum told me or you will be sick.

I'm going to go to bed in a minute with a towel over my pillow again.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 27/05/2010 21:45

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ImSoNotTelling · 27/05/2010 21:46

And umf as well

I am going to stop attention seeking and going on about meeeeeee and go to bed now

Tomorrow will be all positive and ready for action.

We have a domain name (2!)
We have places to host for free
We have the wonderful Bertie to put together idea/s for logo for stop rape / i believe you

Next steps - I tihnk we need to narrow our aim. As much as I hate them we need a "mission statement" type thing that we all agree on. Once we know exactly what our initial aim/s is/are, then we can start thinking who we are trying to reach and how best to do that

It's all v exciting

night all

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Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 21:56

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umf · 27/05/2010 22:01

On the "who are we trying to reach" point, my ha'pennyworth would be that there seem to be a lot of broadly feminist, broadly liberal women out there who've lost confidence on this particular issue.

I've been surprised that some really quite radical-background friends thought that this anonymity might be a good idea, "because false allegations can ruin men's lives".

So it's a modest aim, but I'd think it was worthwhile even if all we hoped to do was to strengthen resolve among broadly sympathetic women and men, and to arm them with some counter-arguments to the media drip drip of anti-women crap.

Nightnight. Hope ISNT's ear drains nicely...

umf · 27/05/2010 22:04

Proles I agree with your thinking about mission statement. And the nice thing about the "I believe you" idea is that it's the kind of emotional stuff that sticks, so gets a lasting sense of buy-in, which can be supported by more factual info and (as you say) links to proper orgs.

HerBeatitude · 27/05/2010 22:06

oh netmums makes me groan.

None of the arguments are backed up by facts or statistics or research or articles. SGM's postings are so well-informed and their's just consist of "I don't agree".

IT's so boring. And depressing.

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 22:22

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StewieGriffinsMom · 27/05/2010 22:32

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vesela · 27/05/2010 23:05

As a "broadly feminist, broadly liberal woman", these are the thought processes I went through when I first came across this proposal (in case they're of any help in convincing other fluffy liberal types):

First I thought - that (anonymity) sounds like a good idea. But why just rape?

Then I read Women Against Rape's objection to it and thought - seriously? the main reason why they say this is a bad thing is that it "sends out the signal that women are lying?" Surely (I thought) the "signal it sends out" - if it even sends one - is secondary to the need to protect people against the risk of false allegation, however slight that is.

and I thought - surely no one now thinks that "women lie about rape." Why are anti-rape organisations coming up with these clichés?

Then I read that the rate of false allegations was no higher in rape than in any other crime, and I thought: yes, singling out rape really is wrong. Then I realised that the lowest figures regarding false accusations were also the most likely to be accurate.

Above all, I gradually realised that even if I and people like me thought that women didn't lie about rape, the way rape trials were conducted did in fact tend to lead juries to think the woman was lying - and that many other rape myths had a noxious effect on the outcome of trials.

So, those were my thought processes in working out that I was against this.

I initially reacted very badly to the "this sends out the signal that women lie about rape" argument. Now I can see that anti-rape activists who follow trials and other processes and generally know what goes on know that it DOES matter what signal is sent out.

KittyTwoShoes · 27/05/2010 23:28

Ok. Here is my blog post. Titled "I Believe You" to fit in with the theme! Tis very long, so apologies... And it would appear that formatting, links, etc do not copy-and-paste well, but I can't be bothered to go through re-italicising everything that ought to be this late at night!


"I Believe You"

Here is a link to a petition I would be very grateful if you would sign.

The LibDems apparently have had a policy for years, which they are now talking about bringing into UK law, that anonymity in rape cases be extended to the accused as well as the victim.

I don't know how I feel about defendants being given anonymity. I suppose if that were a blanket law, I would not have too much of a problem with it. I do, however, have a problem with only giving it to one crime. Why would you do that? Why does someone accused of rape deserve anonymity, when someone accused of murder (for example) does not?

As far as I can tell, there are only two arguments for it.

1 - People are afraid that women lie about being raped an awful lot.

2 - Mud sticks. Being falsely accused of rape ruins lives, people will always judge.

Well firstly, let's just get one thing straight. Argument one is utter tripe. People do not lie about being raped an awful lot. Hardly at all. In fact, the statistics are that between 2-8% of rape claims are false. That means that,

(a) Between 98-92% of rape claims are true, which is not "an awful lot" of people lying about being raped, and,

(b) Yes, people do lie about rape. But no more than they lie about robbery, or attempted murder, or any other crime - no other crime is being offered anonymity for the defendant.

"Most people" do not lie about rape. Not even "a lot of people" lie about rape. There is no evidence to suggest that, no evidence at all, except myths perpetuated by a society in which only 6% of reported rapes end up with a convicted rapist at the end. Do you understand?

Secondly, of course if you are falsely accused of rape, that's awful. But anonymity for defendants is not the answer. As we've just established, you actually have a very tiny likelihood of being falsely accused of rape.

It's not "easy" to report you've been raped, you know. People say all the time, "Oh, but it's so easy to accuse someone of rape..." No, it's not. There's nothing easy about going to a police station, mostly populated by men, and telling them that you've been raped, regaling them with intimate and horrific details about what happened. There's nothing easy about going to a hospital, having your clothes and underwear taken away from you, having your hair - on your head and elsewhere - combed through with a tiny comb to look for evidence, having strangers touch you and look at you, having to pose for photos of your naked body so the cameras can take note of every bruise and every scratch. There's nothing easy about telling the story over, and over, and over again to strangers because if you don't, everything so far will have been for nothing. It's not easy telling your family, seeing your father's heart break, your mother cry. It's not easy to listen to your gentle, sweet brothers plan painful, frightening revenge or your boyfriend announce he'd push someone off a bridge if he had the opportunity, or to hear your friends ask, "But were you drunk? Because that doesn't count..." when you confide in them. None of that is easy, and that is what it takes to report a rape. So next time you think that "it's so easy to cry rape", think about what it takes to report one, because it takes strength and courage that you would never imagine to do that. It is not easy.

Here's a secret. If I read in the paper, or hear on the news, or just hear on the grapevine, about someone who has made a rape accusation, I believe her. I believer her no matter what. I believe her if he's found not guilty. And I believe that the man, even found "not guilty" in a court of law, is a rapist. That's not right, and I understand that it's that very attitude which men think they need protecting from and it isn't helpful. But you know what? With a conviction rate of 6%, there are more rapists walking free than there are innocent men being accused of rape, can you really blame me? It's not paranoid, feminist, survivor delusion. It's stastical fact - most of those "not guilty" verdicts actually were given to people who are guilty.

I understand that being falsely accused of rape would ruin someone's life. And, despite the fact that I do (unfairly, I admit) assume guilt on every count I see, I know that there also some people who are innocent. And yes, it would be awful for them. But you know what? It strikes me, that if there were an improved conviction rate, mud would stick a whole lot less than it does now. Imagine, if you will, that you could believe (and maybe you even do believe, but stastically, you shouldn't) that every "not guilty" verdict was an accurate and true reflection of events. Even most, let alone "every". Imagine being able to place trust in the fact that the courts got it right. If I could do that, if I could believe in "not guilty" verdicts instead of being faced with statistical evidence to the contrary, I would not condemn every alleged rapist in my mind. I would make my judgement based on the court decision, and there would be no need to "protect" any defendant because I, and others, would not presume guilt.

Now, I fully appreciate that it is not going to be easy to improve rape convictions. Not when most rapes are not by strangers but by people known to the victim, and it so often comes down to "she said, he said", and a jury must convict on reasonable doubt. I understand that, and I have no solution other than improve attitudes to rape victims and understand that most of them are not lying.

But this legislation wouldn't do that. It reinforces the message that so many rape claims are false, the defendant needs protecting in a way they would not were they facing other criminal charges, which undermines the notion of getting more convictions. And it stops other victims coming forward. Think of John Warboys. It is unlikely he would have got a conviction on one woman's story. Yet, that one woman coming forward, him being named, resulted in many, many more coming forward and a conviction that took a dangerous and evil man off the streets. You can't tell me you aren't glad he's not driving his cab around London anymore.

Innocent men being branded rapists is an issue. I accept that. But it is a symptom, and not even the worst symptom, of a much larger issue - a lack of rape convictions and an attitude towards rape victims that is, frankly, disgusting in this day and age, in this country. Granting anonymity to defendants, while it seems like a nice, liberal law at first glance, actually just exacerbates the problem by reinforcing the myth that "so many" women make up rape, and by reducing the likelihood of people like John Warboys being convicted. It doesn't help in the long run. Or even significantly in the short run - because for all that 2-8% of rape allegations are false, that means that over 90% are true. The same as with all the other crimes - crimes which, remember, are not offering the defendants anonymity. Offer it to all crimes, or don't offer it all, but for god's sake, don't look at rape, with the highest level of victim blaming of any crime in this society and the most pitiful conviction rates I've ever come across, and think that what we really need to do, right now, is protect the accused. Please.

This matters so much to me, I can't even put it into words any more. My heart is pounding and I have tears of utter fury in my eyes so I can hardly see to type. And it should matter to you, too. I'm a feminist, but that's not scary or bad. I don't have a buzz cut - my hair is blonde, and curly, and touches my tailbone. I don't wear dungarees and have tattoos - I wear skirts and dresses and the only ink that's on my skin is the phone number I scribbled onto my hand in a rush this morning. I don't hate men - in fact, there are several that I love very, very much. I don't want to go off and live in a woman-only commune. I love baking, and creating beatiful places to live, and children. I'm not trying to turn men's world upside down. I just want to be safe. I'm a feminist, but I'm just like you, and your daughters and girlfriends and sisters - and if I can be raped, they can be raped too. You should care. You don't have to be any kind of stereotype to care, you don't have to be a feminist, or a survivor, or even a woman. But you do have to care - really and truly, I don't understand what kind of a person couldn't care about it.

So please. Sign the petition - it's not about denying innocent men protection, it's about changing the attitude to rape, which in turn will protect innocent men. Sign it, and tweet it, and link to it, and facebook it, and do whatever you can to get other people to sign it too. Please.

And if those reasons aren't enough to convince you, and you're still sitting there asking yourself, "Well why should I?" You should, because one in four women will be a victim of sexual assault or rape. That means someone you love, someone you care about, will probably be or have been raped. And the best - perhaps only - thing you can do to help her, and others like her, others like me, is say "I believe you". You don't believe that women lie about rape enough to warrant singling it out for defender anonymity, and you don't believe that the way to deal with rape is pander to the accused. You believe her. Because she's just anyone in the street to you, but she's someone's daughter, someone's wife, someone's sister. To her, you're just anyone. It can happen to just anyone. And if your daughter or wife or sister deserves to be believed, so does everyone else's.

Believe me.

HerBeatitude · 27/05/2010 23:45

Great blog post Kitty, very moving. Can you post it on facebook so we can link to it and publicise it? It might get some people thinking.

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 23:48

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StewieGriffinsMom · 27/05/2010 23:49

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Prolesworth · 28/05/2010 00:00

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