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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The "so what can we actually do" thread...

547 replies

ImSoNotTelling · 25/05/2010 17:18

Hello

Following on from the thread about changing the law on rape to grant anonimity to the accused, a few people have started to think about what we can do to get involved, to actually try and change stuff.

So I guess this thread is for suggestions, ideas, and for people to link up to actually try to change things.

So far we have someone possibly standing for pariament!

So come on everyone.

What's the plan....

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threelittlepebbles · 27/05/2010 12:34

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sethstarkaddersmum · 27/05/2010 12:43

I thought this comment on the Pickled Politics blog was rather fabulous - can't say I agree with all of it, mind....

'Why should people accused of or standing trial for rape require anonymity? It?s a serious allegation, but so is murder, manslaughter, GBH, serious fraud, and a bundle of other crimes. What?s different about rape? The difference is, enough rich Tory scum think women ask for it. This is dog whistle politics to the turd encrusted monied right of the Tory party, throwing ?em a bone for Cameron getting into bed with Lib Clegg.'

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 12:49

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Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 12:57

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threelittlepebbles · 27/05/2010 13:17

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BertieBotts · 27/05/2010 13:38

Hello - are we still doing the website? Do you still need someone to do the graphics for it? I was a graphic designer for a bit (also did a 2-year graphics course at college equivelent to A Level) - I love messing round on Photoshop and would love to help.

ImSoNotTelling · 27/05/2010 13:41

Does anyone know when we will find out more detail on the anonimity proposals/when they will be debated/become law?

Also yes shall we do teh website? I think we need to pin down what we are actually doing, what we want to achieve, how we are going to go about it and be sure that we are not simply replicating what others are doing.

is everyone still keen, or is there a sense that we'd be best off joining up with things that already exist?

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KittyTwoShoes · 27/05/2010 13:45

I'm still keen! Definitely.

threelittlepebbles · 27/05/2010 13:55

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vesela · 27/05/2010 13:58

Someone mentioned the case study at the end of this Guardian article on the last thread. I think it's a pretty good argument against the "equality before the law" point.

"As a victim you don't have any protection in court whatsoever ? you're at a severe disadvantage. You don't have a barrister, character witnesses, a solicitor, you're not able to see the defendant's statements in advance. But he will be able to see yours, and he has all those people. You are absolutely trashed by his barrister."

Does anyone else know what the court setup is like?

oh look, what a surprise.

(The biggest thing we need to do away with, IMO, to get more convictions for both rape and other crimes, is the common law system... anyone want to join me on a crusade?)

vesela · 27/05/2010 14:05

from the article I linked to above...

Ten experienced rape trial barristers revealed their courtroom strategies in the study, Prosecuting and Defending Rape - Perspectives from the Bar. Its author, Professor Jennifer Temkin, of Sussex University's school of legal studies, said: "The defence counsel seem to have a set of strategies. The principal strategy is to undermine the woman's personality.

"A leading QC said that without fail he would apply to the judge to bring up the woman's sexual history...

Professor Temkin said there was "a kind of lack of ethical awareness" in the barristers' methods. She said that defence solicitors frequently used women barristers as part of their strategy to defend alleged sex offenders. Eight of the lawyers interviewed were women. "This is seen as giving a message to the jury that as a woman she believes the man."

Most of the barristers commented on the inexperience of the prosecution lawyers hired by the Crown. "When you have a junior person up against a well paid and experienced QC it's just carnage," Professor Temkin said."

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/05/2010 14:11

I've just had a long conversation with a friend about this. Feel like I've been talking to a brick wall.
First off he tried to tell me the proposal couldn't possibly be just about rape, it must be for defendants in other types of crime too like child abuse, then when it was clear that wasn't the case he tried to tell me I shouldn't worry because it isn't really going to happen, it's just at an early stage in planning and will have to go through lots of consultation and scrutiny first.
Yes I know it isn't becoming law YET, that's why we're campaigning NOW! It hasn't yet happened and by not ignoring it we're trying to make sure it doesn't. Aargh!

vesela · 27/05/2010 14:17

caveat - that article was before the 2003 change in the law. But from other stories it doesn't sound as if much has changed.

LeninGrad · 27/05/2010 14:19

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vesela · 27/05/2010 14:23

more recently:

"Talking to a solicitor and several barristers who defend ? and in one case also prosecutes ? in rape cases, they don?t indict the police for lack of empathy or investigative energy or the CPS for lazily prepared cases: they blame the juries.

Getting a man off a rape charge in a case that rests purely on whether consent was given is a doddle, one barrister told me. ?It?s all about spin. The jury is desperate for a reason to acquit. All you have to do is throw them a bone and they will seize it.? Establish the woman has been drinking, better still has taken drugs. Or while, since 1999, it is no longer admissible to use a woman?s sexual history against her, you can slip in that she had sex with her attacker ? if a former boyfriend ? as recently as a few weeks back. Or maybe she slept with another man the night of the assault. Or perhaps she didn?t report the rape straight away. ?Any delay and the defence council will jump on that like a rat up a drainpipe.?

This barrister has been astounded by the cases she has managed to get thrown out. Even when a client has clearly lied to police and changed his statement, even when a bunch of witnesses see the distressed victim minutes afterwards, even when a male care worker has the DNA of a mentally impaired teenage girl all over him, the jury still let the defendant walk free.

Another barrister, with 13 years at the Bar, explains the jury?s differing expectations of defendant and victim. ?Ideally the woman needs to come into open court looking traumatised.? Pre-recorded video evidence may be kinder to the victim but it distances the jury, makes them feel they are merely watching TV. ?She must not get belligerent or rude, however aggressive the barrister questioning her. Otherwise she will lose.?

And the defendant? ?If he shows up in a suit, sober, a half-decent, half-respectable human being, he will always get the benefit of the doubt.?

full Times article here.

ImSoNotTelling · 27/05/2010 14:58

I read that Times article and the comments underneath is were (as usual) utterly depressing.

There is no appetite in teh general public/powers that be to improve anyhting for rape victims or properly pursue rapists.

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Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 15:21

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HerBeatitude · 27/05/2010 16:26

It makes me want to join a fucking mafia type vigilante group.

Because there's no justice for rape victims, that's pretty clear.

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 16:58

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LeninGrad · 27/05/2010 17:12

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LeninGrad · 27/05/2010 17:14

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KittyTwoShoes · 27/05/2010 17:16

I'm thinking of going with a pro-innocent-men angle in my post... because as long as I know for a fact that there are more guilty men getting off than innocent men being falsely accused, a "not guilty" verdict means nothing to me at all, and rightly or wrongly, if someone is accused of rape I believe he did it. If they'd improve the damn conviction rate, I'd have a whole lot more faith in the innocence of those who are found not guilty. Does that make sense? If we can convince the nay-sayers that while of course innocent men need protecting, there'd be nothing to protect them from if people could trust the courts... seeing as one of their main arguments is "mud sticks", that might go a way towards our arguments?

sethstarkaddersmum · 27/05/2010 17:19

well said Lenin.
I am also comforting myself with the thought that sometimes someone doesn't turn round and say 'Oh yes ok, you're right, I was wrong' immediately but you have actually planted a seed and when they mull it over later they change or at least moderate their position.

This law thing is perhaps a particularly depressing one to be fighting on because it's not about achieving further progress so much as preventing things going backwards. But I think it is winnable.

As for changing attitudes, I don't know how you can ever see results, but it doesn't mean it's not worth it.

Prolesworth · 27/05/2010 17:25

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Ewe · 27/05/2010 17:25

Feminism debate that I am hoping to go to with two very lovely men I know. Just thought I would let you know in case any of you fancied it too.

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