New to feminism?

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

I'm 23, in a relationship and have recently had my eyes opened to feminist issues, which started with threads on here about lap dancing clubs and porn. Recently I've read Living Dolls, Female Chauvinist Pigs and The Whole Woman, and I'm in the middle of The Equality Illusion at the moment. I find all the issues concerned extremely interesting, but they also make me pretty angry and fed up. Right now I'm struggling to get my head around how it's all making me feel, as I'm looking at everything in a different way, and it's making me feel helpless!

My partner has noticed the books I've been reading, and we've had a couple of discussions initiated by me about, e.g. porn, but overall I think it's making him wary. I'm sure he would prefer a me that had no interest in these issues (so would I sometimes - ignorance was bliss). But it isn't going to go away now, so I would like to involve him in it a bit, as you might with any new interest, and also because the thought of being with someone who dismisses things that I am concerned about bothers me (disclaimer: this hasn't happened yet).

I can see that he is very uninterested/uncomfortable with my new interest. For instance, he:

• has told me that he thinks I hate men (because of the whole thing) - I know this is just feminist stereotype!
• called me a prude when I said I had decided that I wouldn't watch porn again. When I tried to explain why, he told me that porn stars and lap dancers do it because they want to and they get paid loads (this is based on one book he has read recently). I asked him whether, if that is the case, I ought to go out and become a lap dancer, and managed to really back him into a corner after he said that he thought I would earn more as what I am doing already - he finally said "yes I'd be happy with our future daughter doing that if she wanted to". I just rolled my eyes as I know he was just fed up of the conversation and was refusing to back down!
• said that he would never watch "nasty" porn, only the high budget American stuff - I think he was actually taken aback when I explained that the low end of the market wouldn't exist without the demand for the high end stuff (I think I used an analogy that involved cars here).
• said I would be out of order to tell him that I would be uncomfortable with him going to a strip club, and that it doesn't matter because he wouldn't get a dance (damn right!). Also that no dancer EVER touches a customer!

I know this is just typical bloke's defensiveness/ignorance, but it's bothering me. He told me that if I really wanted to, he would read one of my books, but that he wouldn't enjoy it because he's just not interested. I guess it's hard for men to face up to these things because they enjoy the position they're in, but they don't realise this. It doesn't affect them because they don't have to live with it every day.

So I suppose I have two questions I'd love to see discussed here - how to deal with the anger I feel having "discovered" feminism? And, how best to try to introduce my new views to DP?
I'm hoping some other feminism newbies might share their feelings as well! Or ladies that have partners who support their views.

Seems fairly busy on this forum tonight so thought it would be a good time to write my first post Thanks all!

[laundrylover]

Wow, what a first post!

Do you think your DP is a little taken aback by your sudden reversal of opinion?

I'm really pleased that you've started to think about these issues but maybe you need to slow down a bit?

Have you looked to see if there are any courses/groups locally that you could join to discuss things with other women?

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

Thanks for the replies and the welcome

This morning he agreed to read The Equality Illusion after his current book, as I finished it last night and thought that it summarised a lot of key issues very well. Also the author is about my age, so he will see that these issues will be affecting me (something that he tried to deny earlier). Maybe I need to use the pill analogy with him!

As for the anger I look forward to contributing to threads on here, and may investigate other things I can do to get involved. But it can be so overwhelming, can't it? You just feel like the changes needed are so massive that it's almost too hard. For me, getting my partner to understand is the first step as he's the man I've chosen to spend my life with. Then, we'll see what happens after

[antoinettechigur]

on the relationship side of things, I would suggest addressing things issue by issue. It is probably a bit overwhelming for your partner to feel you are changing and his lack of familiarity with feminism may be creating unrealistic worries. If you can address porn, lapdancing etc as they arise he will see it is still you and hopefully he'll be more receptive. Although porn and lapdancing aren't issues in my relationship with DP I have found this the best approach to any issues I have changed my approach to since I have reawakened my interest in feminism (thanks mumsnet!).

I imagine that what you are saying is getting through to him, even if he is twisting his views to win an argument! There is a lot of brainwashing about porn etc being "empowering" to the peope involved, planting seeds about the reality should bear fruit fairly quickly.

[antoinettechigur]

You're already making changes that will ripple out and help other women, something to feel good about!

[msrisotto]

Blair - I'm in a very similar situationa s you! I'm 24 and fairly new to Feminism myself. At first it was a big change to me as well as my now fiance and i'm sure we both found it a bit overwhelming but as you say, once you are aware, there is no going back! My fiance has agreed to read a feminist book but I have only just got Living Dolls and am not sure that is the best one for him to read.

You sound like you are making very together arguments and he is struggling to maintain his opinion and is finding it hard to admit he is wrong but give him time to think about it (andhopefully he will, after all , it is important to you) and he must surely change his ideas. He does sound like he is being pig headed about it at the moment and i hope he changes his attitude otherwise i reckon, it could be his demise!

[dignified]

I keep lurking around here but dont usually post. Im interested in feminism ( been reading dittanys threads ! ) but at the same time some of the stuff i read really really upsets me and angers me and im not sure what to do with that really.

Lateley ive noticed the ridiculous adverts, other ridiculous advertising slogans , programmes on tv , films and books i read and the crap that is fed to my daughters.

Not really sure where to go from here to be honest.

[steamedtreaclesponge]

I feel the same - have recently read Living Dolls and Female Chauvinist Pigs after reading some of the porn threads on here.

I'd like to read more but am not sure where to start really. And the more I read the more angry I get, but I'm not really sure what I can do with that anger!

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

Wow - it's nice to see people coming out of the woodwork (like me)!

I'd love to take part in the book club - just got to make sure I read lots of non-feminist books too, to stop myself getting too angry

msrisotto - Living Dolls was the first book I got, as it was publicised quite a lot recently. But I enjoyed the first half a lot more than the second half about the biological "determinism", perhaps because I don't have kids yet so the issues of boys and girls being different don't seem as important to me at the moment. What has really been getting to me is the objectification side of things, I really feel as if I'm struggling to keep a balance between being a woman and being an object (e.g., I like wearing makeup but am I encouraging the "women should wear makeup and be feminine" thing by doing so?).

Sorry, off on a tangent there...

dignified, adverts keep annoying me too. Luckily Sky+ is the best thing ever for this, I hardly ever have to watch them. The other day though, a Boots advert came on and I said something about how it was making women out to be only interested in losing weight and looking good etc, and DP said that that was because it was aimed at what women want. I asked him why he thought women worry about their weight and stuff (ie, negative image given to us by the media, ie Boots adverts!!!) and he just thought I meant what made him think the way he did, so I never got an answer.... sigh...

Anyway, we have agreed to not discuss any more of it until after he's read the book.

[NickOfTime]

I think Germaine Greer had some interesting points on make-up - ie it was ok if you were using it as 'art' - ie as a way of expressing your personality. But not if you were using it to conform to some sort of quasi-perfect masculine ideal of femininity...

but I can't remember which book it was in...

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Hi Blair, and everyone else, and nice to see you on here too treacle!

I am a similar age to you and have had some, er, interesting discussions with my DP about feminism since we got together. To be fair to him he is basically sympathetic, and most of what I say does go in. In fact I think he has been a bit of a feminist all along without consciously realising it. If your DP is into films/media there are quite a few things you could try to make him notice. One that had a big impact on my DP was the Bechdel test. Basically you have to think of a film where

1. There are at least two female characters...
   
   
2. ...who talk to each other...
   
   
3. ...not about men...
   
   It's amazingly difficult. A shocking number don't even get past 1)

[tortoiseonthehalfshell]

It's very difficult for men to accept that they, personally, benefit from sexism even when they, personally, are not sexist assholes. And it's difficult being hit with a bunch of concepts at once, especially when they threaten someone's nice comfortable privileged existence.

I have a lot of the same kneejerk reactions to issues of class and race, for example. I don't want to give up my cheap sweatshop clothes or my privileged social status or the (oft invisible) preferential treatment I get just by being white and able bodied and Beauty Compliant.

So, I think, just go slowly with him. My husband had a lot of the same attitudes when I met him, and has retained a few, but in general just living with me has moved him towards a feminist position. He spots sexism in adverts now, he derides the men who act like entitled babies around housework, he's often quicker than I am to notice the sexism in marketing around children's products (he's the main child carer, and it annoys him no end that he has to go to 'mother and baby' rooms to change our daughter, or buy products called Mother's Choice, for example) and a hundred other examples of the type.

So, gently gently. I know you're angry and want to share that fury with him, but it is difficult. You're making an excellent start, and welcome.

[steamedtreaclesponge]

Hi Elephants! and Tortoise... we've been missing you on the AIBU books thread

That Bechdel test is rather scary. The only films that immediately spring to mind are Little Women and Lilo and Stitch (not sure what that says about my viewing habits, mind you)

I don't have a partner at the moment but did recently find myself having a bit of a rant about pornography to a (male) friend of mine. Rather hearteningly, he seemed to take most of my points on board and agree with them. But it got me wondering to what extent someone's personality determines their attitude towards feminism - i.e., will a man who is more confident and secure in himself feel less threatened by feminism and therefore be more open to it? Or doesn't it work like that?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Great post tortoise.

I was chatting to DP the other day about strip/lapdancing clubs. Although he can see the seediness of it he didn't see that they were objectively a bad thing, as long as the women working there weren't trafficked etc. One thing that helped him to get why I object to them, was the concept that something can be ok/good for an individual, but bad for the wider community of e.g. women. (Think Kat Banyard touches on this in her book)

So if you're a stripper and you like it and you're well-paid, stripping isn't necessarily a bad thing for you. But the existence and prevalence of strip clubs is a bad thing for women in general, because they contribute to a culture where women's bodies and sexuality is always for sale. Likewise glamour modelling/porn etc.

My DP also notices sexism in adverts/TV/films now, and writes me furious emails about what he's seen, which is great.

As far as anger goes, well it's hard. But the best thing is to spend time talking to other people who share your views. Where in the country are you based? There are quite a few local groups etc. The important thing is, your anger is not something that you should try to squash, except insofar as it gets in your way. You are angry because of a massive injustice. There is an excellent 101 article about anger here: If you're not angry, you're probably not helping

As well as books, there are some brilliant feminist blogs out there, I started a thread to gather a list together here

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

Hi E&M - we watched Iron Man the other day, and I brought up the Bechdel test (only I couldn't remember the name at the time). I was pissed off at the way the only women in the film were a) girls in bikinis dancing on his private jet and b) his whiny personal assistant who basically runs his life for him. So I explained about the test and DP's response was basically "So?" and unfortunately he could name a fair few movies off the top of his head that passed the test and which I hadn't seen so I couldn't comment. He didn't see it as a real issue and I couldn't think of a way to continue the discussion (too ill-informed at this stage still I feel).

I think I need to try threelittlepebbles's approach of comparing it to racism. I wish I had thought of that when we've argued before about why women don't appear to "achieve" as much as men (in politics, being board members of top companies, etc). Because he seemed to think very ignorantly that this difference was really based on merit and that if women were good enough to hold these jobs then they would.

Other than makeup, the latest thing to really piss me off is women's magazines. I love buying magazines for the pics of clothes and accessories, as somehow it's more fun than browsing Asos or Topshop online! But once I've paid a few quid for one I feel that I ought to read the rest, and when I do I keep having to catch myself from thinking negatively about myself. This of course makes me more angry.

A prime example was this month's - June's - Glamour magazine (I think)... they had a pic of the plus size model Crystal Renn, the one who these mags always feature. Next to this pic was a load of crap about how "inspirational" she is etc. And they always mention that she is a size 16. Well, this pic was so obviously totally airbrushed that she was actually much much slimmer than I am. And I am a size 10 and would never dream of trying to wear the kind of bodycon dress she had on (with no protruding stomach like I would get!). It made me so mad that they could show this picture of someone who purports to be a size 16 and plus size, and call it inspirational! Seriously, google image her to see what she really looks like and then have a flip through the magazine if you are in the supermarket or whatever. It instantly made me feel terrible about myself. I almost wrote in to complain but what's the point as the only letters they feature on their letters page are ones saying how much better the magazine has made someone feel about themselves. These have to be made up, right?!

...and breathe. It's so nice to just get my random thoughts about stuff down here, and read other people's too.

Anyway, I am in Surrey, south east London way.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Sounds like your DP is going to be a tough one to crack. Think you said upthread that it's hard to make someone who's "privileged" understand why they should give a toss about those who aren't. What's he like in general? Is he compassionate, interested in human rights in general for instance? Or does he just not care about much? Have you tried reversing it, like asking how he would feel if men were constantly put down the way women are?

There was a programme on C4 on sunday, dispatches I think it was, about the young girls being raped in S Africa - would he be the type to watch something like that?

What worries me is this: "if women were good enough to hold these jobs then they would". So does he assume that women are inherently less able to "do" politics than men?

[comixminx]

Re the Bechdel test - apart from being a fun and different way of looking at films (well, I find it to be so), I found it quite helpful when a friend explained it as being about agency. In this sense, agency means something like the power that someone has to act for themselves (disclaimer - I am not an expert).

So 1) if there are very few women in the story at all, then clearly women are being massively under-represented compared to the world we actually live in. That might be ok for specific films (say if they were supposed to be specifically about men or male issues) but if films-in-general are overwhelmingly like that and yet are supposed to be about "the human condition" then they've got a massive bias built in right from the start.

2) if women characters are there but don't interact with each other, they are there as exceptions or as tokens. I suppose this is where a comparison with racism might well be useful.

3) if women characters are there and do interact with each other, but only to serve the male characters, then they are there but not exhibiting their own agency - they are there as disguised puppets of the men who are the ones that the story is really about. This is a more subtle way of having a hidden bias in the story - women are there, but like in Stepford, it's really still all about the men nevertheless!

Actually, that's a thought. Why not try him on the original Stepford Wives novel? It's pretty chilling.

[BlairWaldorfsHairband]

I think I need a bit more advice.

The subject came up again yesterday even though he hasn't started the book yet. We were already arguing about something else, housework I think. He said I'd changed since I started "reading those books" and become more uptight about things. It's true, for example I am much more conscious about doing more than 50% of the housework than I was before - it annoys me now.

Anyway, I called him on something we'd touched on before - why women don't make up 50% of the House of Commons (among other things of course, but that's what I said). He said that they must just not want to that badly or else they'd be there. I just don't know what to say to this. Next I said "So what about FTSE 100 companies, why don't women make up 50% of board members?" His response was "I don't know whether they do." Having assured him that they do not he again said that they must not want to be in those sorts of positions and asked me why most nurses are women.

After a while of this I got annoyed and tried to explain why it was so important to me that he understood my views. He basically said that as far as he was concerned, the world was equal in terms of men and women, purely because he is all for equal opportunities. In other words, if it doesn't affect him directly (and he thinks he isn't sexist by his definition and therefore it doesn't) then he shouldn't have to understand or care about it. He seems to think that sexism is just about people not giving someone a job because they are a woman, and things like that. He has no clue about the issues surrounding rape, objectification and why women do not hold positions of power. And he doesn't care about it.

I got extremely annoyed and said that the afternoon had been ruined. He told me that hearing that was as if I'd punched him in the face (melodramatic much?) to which I responded that only a man could compare words to being assaulted by their partner in such a flippant way. At this point he accused me of being a lesbian, hating men, and told me to listen to myself!

So basically, it didn't go well. He said he will read the book still, but also said that he doesn't think it will change his mind about anything. I told him there was no point him reading it in that case, but he still said he would. In the end I said that I would find it hard to be with someone who didn't care for or want to understand my views on this (he keeps insisting that I "need a woman to talk to" about it), to which he said that if anything breaks us up, it will be this and that's a sad thing.

Sorry for the rant, I know it's long, I just feel down about it. I think if he reads the book he won't admit that he was wrong because of male pride. I said that I thought the reason he wasn't interested was because he's a man and men are in the "good" position, but he insisted that wasn't it.

All help welcomed

[foureleven]

Hiya, I am new to it all too. Although saying that I have always held the views just didnt really put a tag around them.

Im lucky though as my partner held them all too.

When I first mentioned the word 'feminism' my DPs eyes widened and I know he was confused because I am not a man hater and am really feminine in the way I dress etc ... but as we've talked about things I have read or thought of, we have realised that he holds all of the feminist veiws himself i.e. women are equal and should be respected as such. And the being against lapdancing, prostitutes, porn etc comes in to that too.

But if he didnt have those opinions we wouldnt be together anyway so its not suprise.