Can we do anything about this?

[tethersend]

Knowing the power of MN, I am sick of walking past this poster every day, and wonder if there is anything we can do about it?

Or is it just me?

also - dittany:

"For starters it would remind rapists that at least someone is prepared to hold them accountable for their actions given that at the moment no-one is."

It's not like we have the police, or magistrates, or judges, or any of that sort of legal system that arrests and punishes rapists, thus holding them accountable for their OH WAIT YES WE DO.

"Which ads about locking your house or leaving your mobile on the bar?"

clicky oh look it's a man
clicky
clicky and read
clicky

and tethersend:

I'm under the impression (perhaps I'm wrong) that a service whereby some sort of network and software tracks all the licensed cabs in London, receives a text message, uses that message to locate the person, then calculates which three cabs are closest, then texts there numbers to the person, would cost some sort of money to set up and run. I would also assume that 35p may not necessarily cover this cost and so service users are contributing at least in part to the cost of the service and the rest covered by taxes, much like when you pay for a prescription. I assume you don't complain when you have an ailment and your doctor prescribes you medicine that you have to pay £7.20 when the medicines themselves could easily cost a multiple of that? And similarly I don't think service users would complain about paying 35p in this case.

My main gripe here is the funny concept a lot of complainants here have about apportioning blame.

It is a solid, irrefutable fact that a lot of crime (including but not limited to rape) is avoidable. The presence of a dependable police force and justice system prevents crime from being committed by all but the most determined - the kind of people who would be prevented from offending merely by the lack of an opportunity, and care little about any repercussions they might face.
So, all that is left to be done is reduce the opportunities these offenders get. This poster, along with the ones I've linked above, are part of an initiative to reduce opportunistic crime.
No one's likely to to try and steal your phone from a securely zipped inside pocket on a busy street, but if you're jabbering away on it noisily in a deserted alleyway after dark, the likelihood of an opportunistic miscreant to attempt to remove it from your possession greatly increases.
Similarly, you're less likely to get raped if you go home with a large group of friends or in safe transport, than if you go home on your own or, for example, an unlicensed minicab.

At no point do these posters even suggest that it is the victims fault that (s)he got raped, and I think it does your intelligence little justice to read that into it. You're putting two and two together and coming up with the number you want, but whatever it is it isn't 4. No one will deny that in a rape incident, the rapist is in the wrong and his/her actions are totally inexcuseable, but.. well, better safe than sorry, no?

Perhaps conversely to this argument, I think if I walked down a dodgy district of a major city, drunk, after dark, browsing the internet on my smartphone, few people would have much sympathy for me if it got stolen.

I think its a terrible ad.

Let's remember its an advert, not a public campaign. Its aim first and foremost is to make profit, so it doesn't really give a shit about rape per se

I think its shocking its used rape as a way of increasing its profits

I think it blames the victim, suggesting that it's women's fault they get raped. A sort of "see, we told you so: you should have used our company" mentality

I think if they really care about women, they could put an ad up saying

"Message to men who rape: we don't want you working for our company"

or somesuch

If you've read anything about the psychology of advertising and marketing you'll know that a lot of the techniques they use are designed to inspire fear in the consumers.

I find the poster upsetting to see but it actually would stop me getting in an unlicensed cab. I did this a lot when I was younger and was just very lucky, I was normally with a friend but can totally see how it could have been a different story if I was alone.

This ad reminds me of the drink driving ones which are horrible to watch, seeing children getting run over etc - but they actually really worked and in England drinking and driving is pretty much a taboo and that's not the case in other countries I've lived.

I know what you mean about some rapists possibly finding these a turn on, but - they are rapists so of course they will. If this stops women from putting themselves in a risky situation then mission accomplished. Of course it's not the woman's fault - but it's never a bad idea to reduce the risks.

By the way there have been ads about keeping your doors locked and not leaving keys in obvious places - this is not saying you're asking to be burgled!

Sakura- cabwise isnt a cab company- it's a service run by Mayor of London/ TFL to text you 3 licensed minicab numbers so you can call one.

I'm not sure how many of you live in London but unlicensed minicabs are a massive issue, not a slight one. If you leave a club there will be tons of them waiting and it is really tempting because they are cheaper and easier to find than a black cab.

I know at least 5 people who have had dodgy experiences with dodgy cabs- all of them are women. Fortunately they were all pretty sober and v assertive and managed to diffuse the situation.

Getting an unlicensed minicab is like getting into a strnager's car but a lot of people dont see it like that.

I really cannot fathom why this advert is an issue.

OH, sorry. So it is a public campaign . Well I have to admit I'm wrong there.
Still not sure I agree with all the effort and public money going into telling potential victimsi.e all womenwhat to do, though. There is definitely a sense here of the victim being responsible in some way for what might happen to her. I don't like the focus on victims: the focus should be on the men who decide and choose to rape. Something like a "We are watching you" message for potential rapists or similar would be more appropriate.

I agree but I think the issue is that if you are a psycho rapist then becoming an illegal cab driver is a way to fulfil your sick ambitions and be completely untraceable so whilst most cab drivers are completely normal, you will get a disproportionate number of perverts in trades like this.

It's like I agree that it's not your fault if you get burgled, but I still think ads that make people think about security are positive.

I think the thing about this ad is that it gets people talking and makes people aware that there is a BIG difference betwen getting a mini cab you call (traceable driver/car) and getting in one outside a club run (often) by criminal gangs where, best case, the driver has no insurance, and, worst case, the driver is a wannabe rapist and completely untraceable. Many younger women are not really aware of this issue.

Yes, logically what you're saying makes sense.
But there's something iffy about this poster. Awareness can be raised in other ways. The "Oh Stop, please stop..." is very gauche and the main problem for me is that this poster perpetuates the culture of fear. It is a big issue for feminists. The fear itcreates among women, with the explicit implication that they are all potential victims, is a major form of social control (for more info on this perhaps everyone could read the latest book suggested by the feminist book club??
To put rape into context, I think I read somewhere that men are more likely to be beaten and mugged or seriously injured on a saturday night than a woman is to be raped. But men are not targeted and treated as victims by public campaigns.
Where are all the ads of a bleeding man shouting "Oh stop, please stop" as some thugs beat him up on a Sat night, then a message telling men they shouldn't walk on the streets alone, or go into pubs alone?

It's true- the most likely victim of a random attack by a stranger is a man under 30, not a woman. However, there is a different risk/reward pay off.

Far more men walk down the street alone and don't get attacked by a ned than women get into illegal minicabs and dont suffer some sort of attack or intimidation. It makes sense to target a very preventable crime.

Also, I'm not sure what feminist activists want. There are loads of threads on here about how rape isnt taken seriously by "society", but if they do a campaign to reduce attack rates by targeting a very discreet but high yielding area, they still get slated because they're making women out to be victims. Surely it's better to prevent people getting raped than to let them get raped and lock people up afterwards.

Yes its very important to prevent people getting raped. I'm not sure that targeting the potential victims i.e all women is the best way to go about it, though.

Perhaps best to shift the focus onto men who rape. The majority of rapes are committed by a man who the woman knows personally.

A campaign with a poster saying
"Men, DON'T RAPE!" would be more desirable, with perhaps a picure of a man driving a cab.

THe victim message that poster reinforces is out of order.

Yeah- because rapists are really going to take notice of that. I don't imagine they'd thought that raping people might be a nasty thing to do. but once they see the advert they'll say "Oh my God. I should so stay home and play on my Wii tonight instead"

I'm sure that "Don't murder people" or "Don't burgle houses" would be equally effective in tackling the crime rate.

Apart from anything else, if they did a campaign saying "men, dont rape" that would be extremely offensive to the vast majority of men (and cab drivers)who dont go round raping women.

Minicab attacks are a serious problem in London. There is at least 1 a week. If they are looking at crime stats and saying "X% of reported rapes by a stranger are committed by illegal minicab drivers" then I can't see how that's a bad thing to alert people to that fact.

Sakura, please read above:

"My main gripe here is the funny concept a lot of complainants here have about apportioning blame.

It is a solid, irrefutable fact that a lot of crime (including but not limited to rape) is avoidable. The presence of a dependable police force and justice system prevents crime from being committed by all but the most determined - the kind of people who would be prevented from offending merely by the lack of an opportunity, and care little about any repercussions they might face.
So, all that is left to be done is reduce the opportunities these offenders get. This poster, along with the ones I've linked above, are part of an initiative to reduce opportunistic crime.
No one's likely to to try and steal your phone from a securely zipped inside pocket on a busy street, but if you're jabbering away on it noisily in a deserted alleyway after dark, the likelihood of an opportunistic miscreant to attempt to remove it from your possession greatly increases.
Similarly, you're less likely to get raped if you go home with a large group of friends or in safe transport, than if you go home on your own or, for example, an unlicensed minicab.

At no point do these posters even suggest that it is the victims fault that (s)he got raped, and I think it does your intelligence little justice to read that into it. You're putting two and two together and coming up with the number you want, but whatever it is it isn't 4. No one will deny that in a rape incident, the rapist is in the wrong and his/her actions are totally inexcuseable, but.. well, better safe than sorry, no?

Perhaps conversely to this argument, I think if I walked down a dodgy district of a major city, drunk, after dark, browsing the internet on my smartphone, few people would have much sympathy for me if it got stolen."

TheBride, I think that there is a lot that can be done by way of education of men in this. Most rapes aren't committed by men jumping out from the bushes but by men known to the victim. A lot of men think it is acceptable to coerce a woman into sex and to push her boundaries.

I think of a couple of times when I've been in nasty situations with men who wouldn't stop even when firmly told "no". One only stopped when I started to cry. The second, when another man walked in and immediately knew something was wrong because he thought I looked scared. Both men knew I didn't want to have sex with them, but for whatever reason they thought it was perfectly acceptable to pressure me into "changing my mind". I think there is a lot of education to be given to men about what constitutes consent.

Happysmiley- maybe you just need to change the company you keep.

sorry- that was a bit harsh but where do you find these guys?

Believe me, a poster campaign telling men that rape is wrong will solve nothing. They know that. We've had "no means no" since frikkin 1985.

Dont cry next tim- give him a black eye instead. Let him explain that to his mates

TheBride, one was known to me for many years and was a good friend of mine. The other was employed by a company to "look after" me and a group of other people travelling in a foreign country (a part of Africa where you generally don't travel alone).

As for fighting back, much as I tried, I'm 4ft 11in and a size 6. I don't have a great chance against a 6ft tall man who has me pinned down on the ground.

But the question is not why I trusted either of these people or why I didn't fight back hard enough. The real question is why both of them thought it perfectly acceptable to attack me.

Actually TheBride, we know why they both thought it ok to attack me. Society seems to say it's ok as it seems reluctant to condem men that attack women, as evidenced by the fact that you chose to question my acquaintances and my response to being attacked rather than their behaviour in attacking me.

HS

I fully doubt that either of the men thought it 'perfectly acceptable' to attack you.

Neither of them will have had in their head "oh it's totally okay for me to do this, no one cares, its only rape and not against the law"

They will have known it was not acceptable to attack you but just not *cared8.

And it's that kind of people that simply don't care that are the kind of person that attack women.

And I totally disagree that society is reluctant to condemn men that attack women. Sorry but that's complete bullsh*t, and your statement "as evidenced by the fact that you chose to question my acquaintances and my response to being attacked rather than their behaviour in attacking me." is totally illogical and means absolutely nothing.

Thankyou rationality.

Knowing something is wrong and caring about it are two different things but I dont know anyone who thinks it's okay to go round attacking anyone - men or women. As I said, that's possibly just the company I keep. I know these awful people exist. Maybe one day I'l be unlucky enough to find myself alone with one of them, but saying that rape is condoned by society is the worst kind of generalist BS. Even the criminal fraternity rejects rapists FFS.

Happysmiley- I assume you reported your friend to the police and the other man to both your company and the police, or did you think it was pointless because "the police are part of the conspiracy to keep rapists on the streets."

The Bride, of course I know rapists aren't going to take notice of the "DOn'T rape" sign. BUt it will still be just as effective in alerting women of the problem, don't you think? WHile at the same time not apportioning the responsibility onto women? IT does rather sound like you are responsible for whether you get raped or not. But we don't say a man's responsible for being glassed just because he walked into a pub full of scallywags.

rationality, the phenomenon of blaming the victim for rape is as old as God's dog. It's a major issue for feminists, as is the culture of fear. This poster is part of that.

TheBride:

"Happysmiley- maybe you just need to change the company you keep"

So it's happysmiley's fault, then?

Seriously, how is that response not victim blaming?

saying that rape is condoned by society is the worst kind of generalist BS"

Do you read the papers? Do you read the comments written by the public on the online papers? If you do, you'll find a lot of articles and comments that are very unsympathetic to rape victims. Supposedly most are liars that just changed their minds. Some are malicious and just make these things up to slander a man's character.

In my case, both men are "fine, upstanding members of the community". Neither would break into your house or steal your car. If you met either of them, you wouldn't think they would do anything like that.

Of course, I reported neither incident. One because I had no witnesses so it would have been my word against his. The other I chose not to report because I was in a foreign country where the law, police and judiciary probably don't support rape victims. I wasn't hanging around to find out. I got a flight out. With the second incident I may have reported it if it had happened in the UK, but only because I had a creditable male witness.

Read most and skimmed the last

I want to know

Is it statistically more likely that women will be raped after taking a ride in an unlicenced minicab, as opposed to a licenced cab or a black cab?

I have not seen any statistics that show that. I have heard stories of women being raped by icenced and unicenced cab drivers. And of course there was john worboys.

I am unconvinced. And the poster is utterly horrible. Nice thing for the kids to see when they're on a day out in London.

In the poster it is very clear that the women in the advert is undergoing some terrible unspecified ordeal (rape? torture? murder?) and that it is entirely her own fault as she got in the wrong cab.

The person who is subjecting her to the ordeal is not even shown - thus they are completely out of the thoughts of the observer. The ad is all about the woman, what is happening to her, and what she did wrong in order to allow this to happen to her.