Depression: a feminist issue?

[Molesworth]

From today's Guardian: Why do so many women have depression?

Anyone else feel that the 'epidemic' of depression and anxiety among women is a rational response to the circumstances in which we live?

I didn't Molesworth. The office closed down and everyone was made redundant, including me, whilst I was still off work with depression.

At the time, I was pleased, I'd been there 20 years and got a great payout, but it has meant I've never had a chance to face up to what happened.

No more so, or less so, than the "epidemic" of depression in men.

I do know what you're saying SSM. When it all happened I really felt like I was helpless to what happened. Tbh, I'm still not sure today what I should have done differently.

The point I wanted I was trying to make, before all of these memories came crashing back in, is that, as a woman, I think we are more likely to experience this type of attitude in our everyday lives and that our conditioning from childhood makes us less equipped to effectively deal with it.

My solution was to work harder and harder, to try and prove myself. It slowly ate away at my confidence as nothing I did was ever good enough to be accepted as an equal.

Dittany, I suppose it's just the general message that we all get, it's a man's world and if you're going to make it, you're going to have to toughen up. It's difficult not to think I should've been tougher somehow, that I should have sorted it out myself.

It isn't true though, is it? Working as hard as a man just isn't going to cut it. And that's before you take into account all of the other stuff women have got going on.

My boss said to me once that "having children shouldn't interfere with your work anymore than a hobby, like a game of golf". It wasn't directed at me, as I didn't have children at that point, but it demonstrates beautifully just what the women in the office were up against.

This was a multi national company, the top of it's field.

Ah, well I didn't post the article because I agreed with everything that it said, and - tbf - it's in the guardian, so it's no surprise that it focuses on the experiences of a privileged group of women. The problem with this article is that it ends with the advice to 'let things slide' rather than 'acknowledge that this anger-turned-inward might be perfectly justified and therefore a rational response to your circumstances'.

I said "feminist issue" (i.e. a problem connected to women's inferior status), not "women's issue" (i.e. a problem only experienced by women).

What dittany said.

The interesting thing for me in that article was about when the miners were out of work and at home with the kids, while their wives were out working, and they got depressed/PND.

That struck a note with me, very much. I haven't been at all myself since I fell pg with DD1.

The anger turned inwards thing is interesting as well.

I have also been working on doing things "well enough" rather than properly, having realised that this is how most other people do things and they get good results.

I think it is probably fair to say that the underlying reasons for male and female depression are likely to be different, and so looking at female depression is a useful exercise.

Also, don;t forget that in the 60s/70s was it, all of the housewives were on valium. Throughout the ages women at home have also taken the edge off with booze, cgarettes, morphine etc etc anything they could lay their hands on really.

I wonder if this exposion in depression/anxiety is a result of our modern healthy controlled lifestyles meaning that far less people are willing/able to self-medicate than they used to.

I imagine just as many men can't talk about their depression because it is not seen as something men can admit to. They have to go out to work and earn a crust and be the "strong" ones - depression is no doubt seen in some work circles as being a bit wimpy and girly.

More men commit suicide out of depression than women, by the way.

UQD, if men's depression is connected with their restrictive gender roles then it makes sense to look at it through a feminist lens doesn't it

Well, it makes sense to look at it from an equal perspective, I'd have thought, without genderising the issue. But I admit that wouldn't make for such a good headline.

1. I have a very different take on this. I think mental health is often linked to diet and exercise. Instead of women (and men) eating good food and working physically all day they eat junk and don't move much. All good mental health clinics try to stabilise blood sugar levels, cut out junk food, white floor, alcohol etc.

1. Even if women are more depressed than they were and (1) were not the answer I bet more housewives are depressed than working women. It's getting out of the house and doing things that cheer women up. Being home 24/7 just means you're on prozac or whatever women took in the 1950s when men shunted them back into the home or the gin. But it suits misogynist agendas to suggest workign women hate their lives. They don't. Legions of working women are perfectly happy but it doesn't suit journalists to write about those.

1. People with less power get more stressed and have worse mental health- the chief exec - she or he is much more likely to be mentally healthy than the shop floor worker but again it doesn't suit people's agendas to write about that.

1. On this quote about me: "I noticed that Xenia said something about not being a perfectionist -

"Also someone who interviewed me once said every other woman like I am she had interviewed in the series had had this one characteristic - they could accept a good enough job rather than being a total perfectionist. They could look at the children scruffy in the garden and think that's fine I can accept it or leave the office at 6.30 and think I've done enough, a good job. Much harder if your personality is perfectionist."

I am wondering how this perfectionism would manifest itself more now in the current times - I am thinking media/capitalism etc? Also the fast pace of life - too much technology and not enough outdoors "feeds" my ADD characteristics."

I think women have too high expectations perhaps even of happiness. Who ever said there was some wonderful moral pursuit to ensure you are always cheerful? Perhaps doing good and working hard are better ends anyway. It's a pretty selfish to haev some total aim to suit yourself although plenty of us take pleasure in helping others at home and work - indeed going out and helping OAPs on Christmas day cheers people up much more than drinking too much and crying over the turkey.

UQD I think you are absolutely right. the societal influences on men, the hegemonies which still abound, place their own pressures upon men and boys. A feminist approach to masculinity is gaining huge credence in academia at present and generating some important insights.

PS I did chuckle when I learned that one of the most prolific writers about masculinity changed contents and gender though! One can only assume that she now prefers life as a woman! Sorry please assume I being offensive just my somewhat non pc sense of humour rearing it's ugly head...

Raewyn Connell? I've often wondered what her story is re: the sex change, MM

A lack of capitals and 'contents' instead of 'continents' will do nothing for my academic credibility

And...even worse, please assume I am not being offensive.

Am off to write out 'spell check and read aloud before hitting send' 100 times before making a 'perfect' tea from the contents of the freezer. Oh bother, will be so busy writing lines as I have realized I need to add 'do not start sentences with 'and' even in informal writing as it is very very annoying' as well.

It might have to be take out again tonight. High fat pizza with white base I think!

Xenia, joking apart, yes I agree power and poverty might be more interesting to consider than gender; of course the patriarchy does indicate a somewhat unequal power split as well but I do agree that having the power to change things is protective when it comes to depression. As our society stands at present men may not have the 'power' to change working conditions and women may not have the 'power' to control the housework...but I suspect many men would relish the opportunity to decide when to stop for tea and mumsnet that many stay at home women have.

Agree wholeheartedly about the 'rational response' Molesworth. Oh indeed!

I know a psychology professor who specialises in mental health research and he has said in the past that many people are diagnosed with a mental illness (depression) when in fact , given their circumstances, it would be a sign of mental illness if they were not in fact depressed! God forbid anyone might have to look at society/patriarchy and find any fault - much easier to say the woman's (or man's) response is 'wrong'.

Interesting the rates for women are double that for men though. I got the impression that that difference seemed to be more significant than a difference in reporting would account for.

Given that women more often have responsibility for childcare/other caring responsibilities (not just practically but caring for others emotionally as well) and that women are more likely to be poor, it stands to reason even with everything else being equal they would have a harder time.

I have always felt that the nuclear family set up is just not conducive for bringing up children. Extended family / additional support is what is required to care for young children ime. Its just not a one person job. (Even when its two people, its like one, because the other is at work all day.) Women tend to live further from their traditional support networks now.(Echoing your point Marsha, I think).

"Best cure for depression is getting angry at the shite that is thrown at us as women."

Thank you Dittany! That rage has been buoying me up for years.

Molesworth - a colleague of mine worked with her before she was a she. My colleague tells some very funny stories about the sense of humour Connell displayed when announcing at conferences about masculinity his planned change of gender!