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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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How CAN you be religious if you are a feminist?

226 replies

SolidGoldBrass · 27/03/2010 09:47

Given that misyogyny is absolutely inherent in Christianity, Islam and the rest (even when they try to dress it up as saying they 'revere' women and women are 'special' it;s still about women being defined by men as not quite human), how can a woman follow any of these myth systems without accepting that she's less than fully human and her imaginary friend thinks so too, otherwise why wouldn't it have smashed the patriarchy already?

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dittany · 28/03/2010 00:50

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dittany · 28/03/2010 00:55

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Earthymama · 28/03/2010 09:47

Just wanted to say that I don't think of my belief as a religion, I would be surprised if two people who identify as 'pagan' believed exactly the same thing!
Certainly in my little group of six, there are six differing opinions on daily practice, embodiment of the Goddess. No-one is bothered by the differences, in fact, we learn from each other.

We do attend group ceremonies that celebrate the Wheel of the Year. I love these and the sense of community.

I think for me what is important is my relationship with the Goddess. I am lucky in that I live in a beautiful semi-rural area and have the good fortune to grow some of my own food. I see the Blessings of the Goddess on a daily basis.

There is no central text to argue about discuss, though there are many writers who have brought an awareness of the Goddess to the forefront of current spirituality, Monica Sjoo, Diane Stein, Kathy Jones, Glennie Kindred and my beloved Starhawk. I would say to anyone who is interested to read their books and follow them online.

I feel that these beliefs push me towards being more aware of politics and environmentalism. I would say it's not easy or comfortable as, if you accept the responsibility towards the Earth, you end up being the awkward friend who is 'religious' about recycling, transition, peak oil, traffiking, feminism, equality etc etc.

So to answer the initial post, maybe not a prescribed religion, but you ^can follow a spiritual path and^ be a feminist.

And to think I used to be a full on consumer and party animal

Earthymama · 28/03/2010 09:49

But you can't use the 'emphasis' on MN.

piscesmoon · 28/03/2010 10:10

The Bible was written by people explaining the world as it was at that time. If people today were to write something similar they could only write about life as it is today-it will be completely different in 2000 yrs time (if it is still here). No one can possibly write about how they think life will be in 2000 yrs-if they try you can be sure that people living then would roll around the floor laughing at our quaint, way out, notions!The message is important-not the fact that women didn't play much of a part in the Bible.

ilovemydogandmrobama · 28/03/2010 12:46

Women are represented in the whore/virgin mould, and defined by their sexuality. Mary, the virgin mother, and Mary Magdalen, although my understanding is that all that was said was that she had 'sinned' and the assumption being that she was a prostitute. (after all, how else could a woman possibly sin other than sex? )

madhairday · 28/03/2010 12:56

That's it piscesmoon - that's why I was trying to go back to the contextual argument, because I can't see how it could be approached otherwise - study the context and retain the richness of the message. Or go for the everything is literal approach, which imo is the approach which has supported the misogyny in the first place.

This book is a good place to start, although does assume some theological knowledge.

dittany · 28/03/2010 13:35

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dittany · 28/03/2010 13:37

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madhairday · 28/03/2010 13:45

I can dittany when I've regained some brain cells (sunday lunch, no sleep etc. Back later.)

piscesmoon · 28/03/2010 15:52

Jesus was alive 2000 years ago and living in the society of the time-I don't think that he can be expected to be living life according to the way it is lived in the western world in 2010! If he was to come back today he would be in society as it was today, to have any meaning-he would be a fat lot of good if he was living according to what they think in 4010-he would be dismissed as a loony and no one would listen. You have to be relevant to the times you are in.
I didn't realise that the Bible was taken literally. I thought the main message was 'love your neighbour as yourself'. Even the 10 commandments have to be updated-there is no chance of me coveting my neighbours ox-even if she had one! However the message of not coveting is fine, as long as you put in BMW instead of ass.
60yrs ago married women couldn't work in this country -100 yrs ago the couldn't vote-you do have to get things in context. If you want to make changes you have to start from where people are at the time-not where they will be 100,200, 2000 yrs later!!

madhairday · 28/03/2010 16:32

Exactly. How can we not interpret and reinterpret an ancient text in the light of a) its context and b) the society we now live in.

You asked me to be more specific, dittany, so I'll take a couple of the passages you mentioned and go into a little bit more detail and try not to be too tedious.

  1. "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

Firstly, there is some confusion about this passage; it is not included in some of the early manuscripts and is almost an add on. It is strange because in 1 Cor 11 Paul obviously assumes that women will and do speak out in churches, referring to women praying and prophesying, so therefore there would seem to be a specific scenario that Paul is addressing here (if he indeed wrote these words which is uncertain), rather than issuing a blanket command. Looking into the context of this passage we find that most of this chapter is about building order in public worship, and thus it is addressing problems in the congregation the letter is addressed to. This goes back to what I referred to in my earlier post - public worship in Corinth would have been conducted in Greek, which most of the women (only knowing their local dialects) would not be able to grasp. Paul is not saying this is a good situation; he is merely dealing with the immediacy of what is happening. It seems that there would have been bored chatter and enquiring of husbands etc (however weird that seems to us) and general disruption.
Basically, the passage is addressing a particular problem at a particular time, and it is made obvious by many of Paul's other statements that this was not a general 'decree'.

Another one:

  1. "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God?A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

Now I'm not going to go greatly in depth into the whole head covering thing, as most people know the contextual arguments (women who didn't cover their heads tended to be prostitutes, etc) but I will just look at the whole man as head of woman thing. Unfortunately this passage has been misused countless times through history to oppress women, whereas looking at it in context can give a more liberated angle on it, and show Paul not as a woman hater but as someone who really means 'there is no male or female, for all are one in Christ', as he says elsewhere.
There is some evidence that Paul in verse 3 is referring to the 'head' not as someone with ultimate power, but in the sense of a 'source', of a river for eg, which is substantiated somewhat by him referring to the creation story (woman coming from man etc.) So as God is the source of man, man is the source of woman (I always like to think of it as blokes couldn't survive on their own, so God made something stronger to keep them going ) - and not 'head' as in headship, derogatory power usage type of meaning. This is where diving into the context and also the original texts shines a different light on stuff.

I could go much further into this but would be too boring, and I am probably not making an awful lot of sense anyway. I could go into more of these passages if you like (I wouldn't touch ecclesiasticus though, I don't really tend to go for the apocryphal books and it does sound nasty!!)

The main point I want to make though is that I am fully convinced that as a woman I am equal to a man in God's sight, because I am fully convinced God is male and female.

dittany · 28/03/2010 16:58

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posieparker · 28/03/2010 17:01

Historical Christ I can accept would have had different values and lived in a different time, but how could the Son of God not have delivered the message of equality....how did God create Man so unequal....it is proof there is no God.

The two most important women in the bible committed the greatest sin and a virgin birth....

Clarissimo · 28/03/2010 17:23

madhairday- dual gender god as in Hindu faith you eman? Whatever you describe me as, that is what I am not?

I always found a lot of meaning in that. The whole concept that we have little sparks of the divine in us that go back when we die- that would make us all equal wouldn't it?

Vivekananda, religious universalism etc. All good stuff that works for me.

dittany · 28/03/2010 17:29

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madhairday · 28/03/2010 17:33

Clarissimo - I don't know a lot about the Hindu faith, but in some senses that's sort of what I'm saying, but in the context of Christianity. Sparks of divine, image of God, whatever you want to call it - yes, I think God is both genders or transgender and we are all in God's image - therefore equal. This is made clear early in the bible, and God is often referred to in the feminine, and for me can be celebrated as God the father and yet also a mother figure. It is a mystery. Some feminist theologians have gone down the path of trying to find a word which would describe the pronoun of God, so not calling God 'him', but have not really come up with anything suitable. I would probably still say 'him' often but do try to use inclusive language, eg 'Godself', when I remember!

Clarissimo · 28/03/2010 17:42

Dittany- absolutely agree about Sati (see my post right at the start). I have no truck with that. In fact tehre's a whole thing in Hindu studty atm about teh separation of Brahmanistic tradition (so what I described ) and village tradition (Sati, numerous deities etc).

I remaiun to be convinced but it is out there.

The Brahman thing though- spark of the divine- stands alone as a good efinition of my take on the divine. There's no need to buy into a faith wholesale. IN fact the whole point of Vivbekananda was his status as one of the first voices of religious pluralism- I have a lot of respect for that. I think there are things to be elarned in all traditions (and things to be dumped). Look at Sikhism- the notion of everyone sitting down together to eat a meal regardless of caste or tatus (triple astounding in teh caste system in whcih it arose). Sikhism has not relevance to my way of thinking and yet I see a beauty in that tradition.

I am a Quaker. That means (to me) switching off from what I am told by books that have authors and translations and the like, and churches that have to make money for roof funds or whatnot and listening to the voice within when considering God. Listening to the silence really. conscience imagination whatever you call it- a powerful force nonetheless.

There is no system in existence created by humanity that has not been influenced by people and their myriad motivations, for positive and negative. That doesn't mean there isn;t something to be found in each system though, just that if you want a whole truth you might (I might) need to look further. I studfied 7 afiths for my degree and I have as yet to find one that has all teh answers or one that has no answers. Buddhism looks at persdonal repsonsibilty and middle road; Islam at the community ; Christianity at the power of love; Brahmanic tradition at the spark of the divine in all of us. I can learn from all of it without taking any on board wholesale.

dittany · 28/03/2010 17:43

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piscesmoon · 28/03/2010 17:45

I believe the central message to be 'love your neighbour as yourself'-surely that means that rape and child abuse is out? If you wouldn't want to be abused as a child then you don't do it to others.
I don't think that the gender is the least important-the Bible was written by men- and men in a patriarchal society-they were hardly going to give women a fair say! They were men of their time and you have to take the Bible as it was at the time man's explanation of the world. I expect that if women had written it it would be different! (but they didn't write).The Adam and Eve story is one interpretation of the world beginning-different religions and different cultures have different stories-generally written by men. We now know that it didn't start that way so we just take it in the historical context.
God's message can only come through the people at the time-and they were men. If he sent it via women it wouldn't have got through-they didn't have a voice. The Bible can actually say anything you wish it to say-if you search hard enough!

dittany · 28/03/2010 17:45

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dittany · 28/03/2010 17:48

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piscesmoon · 28/03/2010 17:48

'Our mother who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy queendom come
Thy will be done
On earth as it is in heaven

I just find this sort of thing irritating -like saying 'chairwoman'-it doesn't really matter! I don't think God is male or female and so both are wrong.

madhairday · 28/03/2010 17:50

There is quite a lot of usage of 'her' as a pronoun for God. Some variate between him and her, some use only her, some neither. I find it helpful to think of God as both, but will never be able to explain this fully.
Clarissimo, I studied a similar amount of faiths too, I agree that they all have positive aspects to think upon and we can draw the good from them. However, I have found that Christianity for me fulfils everything I am searching for. Christianity as Jesus taught, and what he did, not necessarily as the church through the ages has interpreted. Like you say, every religion is man made and thus flawed.
I think Quakerism (is that a word???) is interesting and has a lot to be said for it. I am interested by how you describe the listening to the silence. I would say that as a Christian that is an important part of how I practise my faith.
Unfortunately I am C of E and the bloody roof costs do too often get in the way!

Clarissimo · 28/03/2010 17:50

Was that to me Dittant? I think you are missing my point.

My entire point is that just becuase you don't like something key about a faith (philosophy / whatever)) does not mean tehre are no grains of truth in there anyway. your own truth of course. A faith text you read that you not subscribe to is a philosophy. There's no rule to say that because line 27 has soem meaning to you that you ahve to accept anything else. Jesus do to one another as you wuld be done to- can you only accept that as a phislophical guide if you buy into the whole patriarchy? Of course not. it's a good motto for lilfe even if you think that Jesus never existed (and despite evidence many do think that). Liewise Do Not Steal, or the Buddhist thing about everything is constantly changing.

Is Quakerism patriarchal then? Why do you think that?

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