Why do I get so irrationally angry at all these "poor men" threads?

[ImSoNotTelling]

In the last couple of days there have been a few threads about how difficult life is for boys, how our whole society is weighted against them, how they are set up to fail academically by a system weighted against them, how they are victims of violence, how no-one takes them seriously.

I understand that a lot of the protagonists on these threads have sons and are naturally worried about how things will play out for them in their lives, That is a given when you have children I think. You also want the best for them, for them to have all the advantages in life.

However this business about men being done down all the time, I just don;t see it.

For every one ad on teh telly with a man being incompetent at cleaning, I see 10 with a man in a sharp suit being successful, with loads of adoring women gazing at him.

I see images of men doing exciting physical activities, being powerful, swishing out of expensive cars, glanching at their expensive watches, exuding authority as they sweep down the road.

Most of our politicians are men, in the papers the vast majority of "experts" consulted are men.

Men will on average earn a lot more money than women over the course of their lifetime, even if the fact that many women go part time is factored out (sorry I've got no links). In fact women on average are earning less than men, in the same jobs, before they have even started their families. In my old industry the women earned 40% less than men.

So are boys and men in our society really having a terrible time, and we need to redress the balance? If we redress the balance, what does that actually mean? What do people who call for this want? For men to earn even more money than women in the same job? For more men to be decision makers?

I just get when I think about just how shit it is for women and girls, still, here and around the world, and yet we are all supposed to ignore that and accept that yes, men have it worse, let's forget abotu the girls (again) and concentrate on making everything even better for men.

Men being portrayed as incompetent idiots at childcare/cleaning is a feminist problem: it implies that housework is of the female domain.

The way in which men are allowed to be masculine has a massive impact upon women's rights. So, in our concern for the reduced 'masculinities' available to men, we can be very feminist.

Diametrically opposing men's and women's rights disadvantages the Women's Movement.

I understand how one can be when you care such a lot about an issue and think other people don't care. I feel the same way about issues for women around the world, and I feel frustrated when I see what I might consider trivial human issues being addressed in the First World when there are far greater and more profound difficulties being faced elsewhere. I am not talking about the issues of rape and domestic violence. But with some issues of principle it feels as though the most privileged population wants to dot their own 'i's and cross their own 't's, when the worst off are still on their very knees.

I understand though that it must seem very distant, and I don't wish to diminish the most serious problems still suffered by women in the First World.

I still get vaguely irritated about the way boys' academic underperformance is talked about.

For all the years when girls did worse than boys it was because girls were less clever than boys. (This was the case as recently as 10 years ago in relation to them getting fewer Firsts than boys.)
Now boys are doing worse it's because the system is wrong.

(sorry, not a very profound post I'm afraid.)

MrsBean78 - I agree. I think that it starts with the whole 'boys will be boys' that some people use to explain the bad behaviour of young boys.

That's a particular type of masculinity, though ditanny.. It is just as potentially limiting of life choices for men as women, ultimately disadvantaging both. For example, you may have men who feel compelled to see e.g. caring for a baby as something that is not the right or 'masculine' to do, so they don't involve themselves, depriving themselves of the joy of it and leaving the mothers of their children feeling isolated and alone in the relationship. On a more serious level, you have men who feel compelled, when with other men, to conform and acquiesce with demeaning or abusing women, even where this is something that will haunt them. Everyone becomes damaged.

Think of that word: privilege.Shouldn't privilege, by definition, equate with something positive and advantageous? To ask a terribly crude, awful question: is it pleasant to be a soldier in an environment where rape is used as a weapon? Do we believe this is what men want? Or to take a less potentially inflammatory example, is a 'high paid' job involving, say, 80 hours a week working in a very competitive environment where you are expected to conform to certain stereotypes (cocaine, alcohol abuse, frequent anonymous sex) necessarily privileged? Do all men find all of the above fulfilling and positive? What about men who don't want that for their lives, aren't they also constrained by these stereotypes?

But does that mean that men can be other than masculine? I dislike the word femininity because it is so loaded with so-called female 'virtues'. I guess masculinity could be see the same.

'Masculinity is about male domination over women and everything that flows from that.'

Masculinity is about being male like femininity is about being female. There's nothing innate in masculinity (or maleness) that requires the man to be demeaning or domineering over women. I'm not saying that there aren't men out there like that but it's not accurate to pin the blame on masculinity.

I think if we go down the road of seeing everything that has male attributes as somehow intrinsically bad or undesirable then we would be doing everyone a disservice. I'm sure quite a few people here have sons.

I'm just problematizing it from long-distant perspectives I was presented with at university. Postmodern/cultural studies stuff... it's very hazy to me now, and I'm not saying I necessarily believe it, just throwing it out there.. If I had been a good little student I could probably say all sorts of clever things about Foucault, but I was lazy and it is a long time ago

I really don't feel sorry for rapists! Just applying the same logic that I have seen applied elsewhere to, say, everyday folk in Nazi Germany who colluded with the atrocities, wondering how this happens to human beings, what cultural forces make it happen so to speak.

I think having a baby boy (still brand new, only 3 months, sitting with his daddy here beside me watching Rugby Union) has made me reconsider everything I ever thought from a feminist perspective. I saw my dh cry for the first time in years the other day becase his job is under threat and he feels this huge pressure to provide for our son. This despite the fact that we earn the same, and it's quite simple really, if he loses his job, I could just go back to work and we would muddle through. But I sense he would feel emasculated by that? And I feel this terrible pull to stay home? Despite the fact I love my job and he hates his? So we are clearly acting under the influence of cultural forces, and I wonder how far his influence can stretch e.g. to the bad stuff, like rape/war etc? (Sorry if there seems to be a massive leap there.. )

this influence not his influence!

(I guess I am a postmodern feminist dittany!)

I agree that it is sad that men are socialised into the worst traits of "masculinity", or feeling that they need to display them to "be a man". So having to go and watch the footie when they would rather be at home with the kids, having to shout crude comments at a young girl when they would rather not, having to play football when they would rather be doign art.

But isn't that something for men to address within their own selves? And it's not always true - men who choose different paths are usually respected and in fact get huge compliments - observe the man in the supermarket with the little baby being fawned over by women for beign such a wonderful wonderful man.

And I think that the penalties of having to behave as a stereotypical man are on the whole less than the penalties of having to behave like a stereotypical woman. When stereotypes are adhered to, women earn less money and are far more constrained in what they can do, and are much more at risk of abuse.

Yes isn't it for men to put their own house in order, if they feel hard done by?

Why is it up to me, who has experienced the downside of being a woman in this country only too well and often, to sort out mens problems for them? Why can't I concentrate on my own problems, problems that persist for my whole sex?

I'm not out there campaigning for men! I do have a small son, and a responsibility to think about what man he'll become, and how I will shape that as his mother. As does my dh. So we talk about these things, try to muddle them out, be reflective and analytical of our own situation.

Dittany, if it happens to men, it happens to human beings. In that, if men go to war, women suffer. So in that respect, consideration of masculinity is something worthy of feminist debate.

yes if men wanted to stay at home with the kids, or have part time flexible work, or not watch football, or not indulge in casual sexual assault of women, then it would be done. It would already be like that, as men hold the power. The society that we have is the society that they want.

I don;t see men going on marches to fight for the right not to have to indulge in male posturing and work full time and make lecherous comments to young girls.

Thus I can only assume that the vast majority of men are fairly happy with the current set up.

ISNt has a very good point - men are not suddenly in some kind of feminism-caused crisis - they still enjoy immense advantages over women.

Yes, but that's taking the view that there is one 'masculinity'. I don't ascribe to that view.

Let's be real for a moment, rather than theoretical.

I have a small boy on my lap. He is three months old. Do I look down at him and think that he is just itching to grow up and go a-raping and a pillaging, as he has an intrinsic desire to dominate and subjugate women? If, for argument's sake, I do, what - as his mother - do I do with that? How do I mother him?

If I look at my partner, whom I love, how do I view him? Is his current provider anxiety borne out of the desire to tie me down and enslave me? Should I ditch him and run screaming for the hills because he is watching Rugby Union???

Actually, dittany, there was a whole lot of feminism on my course. I liked Foucault's analysis and it resonated with me. Are you telling me that I should only resonate and respond to female thinkers? That's a bit problematic, no?