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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do I get so irrationally angry at all these "poor men" threads?

291 replies

ImSoNotTelling · 20/03/2010 11:15

In the last couple of days there have been a few threads about how difficult life is for boys, how our whole society is weighted against them, how they are set up to fail academically by a system weighted against them, how they are victims of violence, how no-one takes them seriously.

I understand that a lot of the protagonists on these threads have sons and are naturally worried about how things will play out for them in their lives, That is a given when you have children I think. You also want the best for them, for them to have all the advantages in life.

However this business about men being done down all the time, I just don;t see it.

For every one ad on teh telly with a man being incompetent at cleaning, I see 10 with a man in a sharp suit being successful, with loads of adoring women gazing at him.

I see images of men doing exciting physical activities, being powerful, swishing out of expensive cars, glanching at their expensive watches, exuding authority as they sweep down the road.

Most of our politicians are men, in the papers the vast majority of "experts" consulted are men.

Men will on average earn a lot more money than women over the course of their lifetime, even if the fact that many women go part time is factored out (sorry I've got no links). In fact women on average are earning less than men, in the same jobs, before they have even started their families. In my old industry the women earned 40% less than men.

So are boys and men in our society really having a terrible time, and we need to redress the balance? If we redress the balance, what does that actually mean? What do people who call for this want? For men to earn even more money than women in the same job? For more men to be decision makers?

I just get when I think about just how shit it is for women and girls, still, here and around the world, and yet we are all supposed to ignore that and accept that yes, men have it worse, let's forget abotu the girls (again) and concentrate on making everything even better for men.

OP posts:
blinder · 24/03/2010 21:45

I'm concerned that this is turning into an 'interrogate Dittany' thread. I can't participate in the discussion (because I wouldn't know where to start!) but I just want to register my general sense of discomfort at the tone of the thread. I appreciate that these are issues that are close to people's hearts and identities. And I don't mean any poster in particular but it seems that Dittany is fielding questions from all sides. Obviously, you're used to debate Dittany but I hope you're comfortable with this.

As an aside, redlentil's clarifications of various points of argument are helping me to follow along.

dittany · 24/03/2010 21:56

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RedLentil · 24/03/2010 22:06

Dittany, if I have made you uncomfortable at all I apologise unreservedly. I don't ever contribute to AIBU threads because I really dislike the way that what would be a chat in person becomes an interrogation online. I've probably got all excited here and forgotten that distinction.

Your views have made me wriggle in my chair and huff grumpily but I really have enjoyed agreeing and disagreeing with you.

MillyR · 24/03/2010 22:21

Dittany, I understand your posts. I do not understand many of the points made by other people on this thread. People cannot be swayed by arguments that make no sense to them, so I wouldn't worry too much about the weight of academic theory.

dittany · 24/03/2010 23:07

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dittany · 24/03/2010 23:08

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RedLentil · 25/03/2010 07:47

Cool. I'll leave this thread now to get on with that work, but look forward to chatting again in this topic with everyone.

I'll read up on some McKinnon too.

Molesworth · 25/03/2010 09:47

Dittany, I can't believe you're suggesting that a thinker must have led an ideologically spotless life before you're willing to engage with their ideas. That's going to disqualify an awful lot of thinkers.

I have asked questions (not 'interrogated', blinder ) because I want to improve my understanding. If someone puts forward strong views - as dittany does - is it not OK to enter into a debate with that person? Is it not OK to ask them to clarify their views, to define their terms? Is it not OK to expect a reasoned engagement with ideas?

comixminx · 25/03/2010 09:58

I haven't time to post substantively right now but:

  1. BSDM is not sexual violence. Its defining hallmark is consent. If there isn't consent all the way through it, it's not BDSM.
  2. If we are talking about Foucault with respect to this, he was famously gay. No question of sexual violence against women there, surely. NB this doesn't mean I claim Foucault as a feminist.
  3. Why are we suddenly conflating postmodernism and queer politics? Was that a typo perhaps?
  4. Dittany has been very active in prolonging the discussion. Specifically there are various points I wouldn't have gone anywhere near if not for questions that she raised - as I said, my original post was about making sure we tried to clarify some of our terms.

On the plus side, as dittany also says, it can be and is being quite invigorating.

blinder · 25/03/2010 15:24

Molesworth I did actually state that I wasn't referring to any specific poster but that the effect of Dittany having to field questions from several different posters was a bit like an interrogation.

Tbh your series of rhetorical questions to me 'is it ok to blah blah and blah' is an interrogative style which isn't particularly necessary. Neither is the raised eyebrow.

At any rate I merely raised a concern about the tone of the thread and checked out whether Dittany minded. She doesn't mind so no harm done.

dittany · 25/03/2010 18:14

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Molesworth · 25/03/2010 18:43

I'm sorry for my tetchiness blinder. I must admit I found the 'interrogation' thing annoying. This thread is making me tetchy now and life's too short, so I'm going to leave it.

Oh and for the last time dittany, no-one is claiming Foucault is a feminist! This has been said at least three times on this thread. Thank you for the links and recommendations for further reading: I will be following these up and joining in with other threads in this topic.

dittany · 25/03/2010 19:27

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blinder · 25/03/2010 20:01

Fair enough molesworth.

fashionbuy · 05/03/2013 12:36

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TheNebulousBoojum · 05/03/2013 12:45

A blast of Zombie breath from the past though, this thread is almost three years old. Confused

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