If the majority of women voted in favour of self ID?

[MaIeficent]

What would you do?

Completely hypothetical question. I'm not so interested in hearing about the stats/reality or that 'it would never happen'. Just hypothetically what people's stance would be if it did.

I'm conflicted as I don't think I could ever be in favour but I simultaneously support the right of women to make their own choices even if I disagree with them.

Would you defer to them in recognition that this is the decision that makes women as a whole happiest or would you soldier on and try and impose the wishes of a minority group onto a majority of dissenting women?

Can women consent on behalf of other women? Even if a woman is happy to waive her "rights" to female-only sports teams/changing rooms/toilets, surely other women's rights aren't hers to give away?

That's quite a interesting point. I would also say isn't it also the same with brexit which party in power etc.
I don't know how I would feel tbh

I'm inclined to agree that nobody should give away other people's rights. I'd also be conflicted if the choice was in my hands and I knew my preferred choice would be against the wishes of most women.

In light of the SCJ I can't see the point of the GRC anymore, since it doesn't make a man into a woman for the purposes of the equality act or give them access to women's spaces or services. If men want to self ID into a GRC I can't see why I, or any other woman should care really.
Far from enabling self ID they might as well get rid of it as it's effectively useless now.

I was under the impression that the majority of women supported social transition but were against legal reform. However, from googling it I'm not so sure now. It seems that continental Europe and the wider world has quite differing views, obviously excluding places with strongly patriarchal/dictatorial governments.

Google AI tells me that:

• Spain holds some of the highest overall public acceptance rates globally and 'voted heavily in favor of progressive social reforms' with younger, intersectional feminist groups strongly defending it.

• The Nordics were pioneers in self-ID with regional Eurobarometer and domestic polls evidencing exceptionally high support for self-determination. Societal norms regarding gender equality and individual autonomy are deeply institutionalised, leading to a broad female consensus that legal transition should be depathologised.

• The majority of German women support the self-identification law, known in Germany as the Selbstbestimmungsgesetz (Self-Determination Act), with extensive polling showing that women consistently express higher rates of approval for the legislation than men. 51% of German women surveyed stated they approve of or completely support the Self-Determination Act.Only 31% of German women rejected the law.

• In Ireland, public polling (such as standard Ipsos/MRBI data on social issues) indicates that Irish women, particularly those who drove the landmark abortion and marriage equality referendums, overwhelmingly favor self-ID.

• in Latin America coalitions of women activists explicitly tied transgender liberation to their wider fights against gender-based violence and patriarchy. Consequently, self-ID enjoys robust, mainstream support among female activists and voters in these nations.

• In sharp contrast to continental Europe and Latin America, the gender gap operates differently in the UK and US, where self-ID remains a major cultural flashpoint. However, polling by YouGov UK reveals that young British women (18–24) overwhelmingly support self-ID.

It's as yet unclear whether the age disparity in the UK shows that women change their views as they grow older, or whether this is just a generational difference of view and the consensus may shift as this generation takes over and passes their views onto their children.

If the majority of women were in support of mixed sex spaces, the minority who want single sex spaces should still have those provisions.

If the majority want mixed sex, fair enough. But that does not negate the necessity of single sex spaces for those who want it.

It's right to accommodate everyone, even minorities, right?

(All we're asking for is single sex stuff. Sometimes it's like we're asking for the moon on a stick)

There is no registry of trans people. All of them self-ID, no matter what documents they hold..

Same way I self-ID as disabled. I don't claim any benefits, but I definitely have irreparable nerve damage which badly affects my mobility.

I self-ID as straight, too. And non-binary. (As of yet, no one's come round to put a stamp on my arm confirming this, but give it time.)

So the question's ridiculous. Not only does it ignore that most cis women aren't transphobic, but self-ID is what we all do. All the time.

I'm not having anyone tell me I'm not disabled because I don't have the right paperwork. Or that my son isn't a trans guy because his identity doesn't (yet) match all his documents.

Most women know that men attack us where we want and the authorities will do nothing. Those poor girls attacked at that Army base had instructors walking in on them dressing and teenage boys invading their rooms. See also that awful case of the serial sex attacked who was given freedom.to rape and kill more women because misogyny, patriarchy and the massively underfunded justice system which keeps calling women.

There is no social contract, there are no safe public spaces, and attacking trans people is a massive distraction from confronting the reality of male violence. Pretending any man needs to transition to 'access' women is insulting our intelligence.

I don't see that sharing a hospital ward or gym changing rooms with transwomen actually benefits any woman. Some may not mind doing so or may want to put transwomen's feelings before their own. I don't see why that should override the serious issues that some other women and children have with sharing - lack of safeguarding, trauma, conflict with religion, etc.

But if the majority of women voted in favour of introducing self-ID at some point in the future what would your stance be?

Well, you don't have to worry about any of the women attacks, as you're non-binary. Opting out is marvellous eh?

Oh, but hang on, you then go on to say, 'Most women know that men attack us' - so back in the women camp?

Stop being so bloody disingenuous.

What I'm asking is whether GC feminists would support self-ID as seen in other countries if the majority of UK women wanted it? Would they be happy to impose their will on an unhappy majority because "they don't know what's best for them".

I don't have an agenda or anything like that. It's just something I was thinking of and couldn't really come to a conclusion on. I'd like to think i'd put the wishes of the majority of women over my own, but in this instance it'd be really hard.

In the UK as the law currently stands, I told you already, I wouldn't care.

Let's face it, most of the men barging into women's spaces right now don't have a GRC anyway. We may as well HAVE self ID for all the difference it makes. With or without GRCs they are still acting illegally. Its irrelevant now.
When it seemed as if a GRC would give TIMs the actual RIGHT to use women's SS spaces, services etc then it was a different matter. I'd be totally against it no matter what other women thought. But now that we know that isn't the case... meh. Let them get on with it.
They aren't women and no power on Earth can make me pretend they are.

The issue isn't self ID as such.

But how those that have self id' have acted in the removal of women's spaces/sport etc.

I think this would be my stance.

But as above I'm talking hypothetically as opposed to the current reality. Although obv I appreciate this makes it a bit pie in the sky.

So basically, no to men self IDing into women's SS spaces then?

I think part of the issue is that we can't say we have to cater to the wishes of all groups but then leave some out. But of course some of the wishes are mutually exclusive.

I was clear. If a GRC meant men with one had the right to invade women's SS spaces then my answer is no.
No matter what other women think about it. I won't change my view on that. They cannot consent on my behalf. It's a NO!

Personally, no I wouldn't. What about women who have PTSD due to being assaulted by men? Finding oneself alone in a sound-proofed room (due to the two sets of doors with closing mechanisms) with an unfamilar adult male would be unnerving for me, but could be terrifying for them. Also, what about Muslim women who require single sex spaces?

I thought I'd been pretty clear about that.

It would be interesting to know, in each of those cases, what exactly "supporting self-id" amounts to.
Surveys over here tend to get "yeah, sure" responses if they ask vague questions about "supporting trans rights", but rather less enthusiasm if specific questions are asked about transwomen in women's sports, prisons etc.

Fair point. But if I'm not mistaken, self ID in these countries means men using women's spaces and women seem to be mostly in favour.

I'd campaign against it - as I have been doing for over ten years already. If the Equality Act was reformulated in such a way as to negate the Supreme Court's analysis, I'd continue campaigning but would, perhaps, have to focus more strongly on rights to single-sex accommodations.

Sex-based rights are the point, as we keep saying. I don't give a shit how many people identify themselves as the opposite sex, as long as they don't (re)gain the right to remove single-sex rights from those who want or need them.

Spanish feminists protested strongly against the 2023 'lei trans'. They remain extremely concerned. This law, which fully ratifies self-id, provides severe penalties for 'transphobia'. Women's shelters and the like cannot afford to insist on females only, and protests have become risky.

This Telegraph article (archived link) is about a large Women's Day 2024 splinter march against the lei trans. Police tried to stop them, but their heavy-handed methods made it onto social media and the protest did continue.
<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/20240309144958/www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/09/spanish-equality-minister-under-fire-feminists-trans-stance" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.is/20240309144958/www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/09/spanish-equality-minister-under-fire-feminists-trans-stance/

This is a good point. The question is often asked in a very sly way and doesn't address the reality of what self ID really entails.

I think more people - men as well as women - would answer differently if the question was posed more honestly.

Are these women being asked anonymously? Because that would probably make a big difference to their answers.
OTOH if they are anonymous surveys, how can we be certain that the answers are really coming from actual women?
It's a pickle all right.