How much has gender ideology cost this country?

[mumsandaunties]

My feed is full of people complaining about how much the EHRC guidance is going to cost, and blaming it on women with the audacity to want a single sex space.

This is completely back to front thinking. The law has always been the same. Public opinion has always been broadly the same, save for a load of unthinking “be kind” people who didn’t think through the logical conclusions of what the “TWAW” slogan meant for women and girls.

I wonder if somebody could calculate the cost that this ideology has incurred in this country. All these unlawful changes to toilets that have to be corrected. All the tribunals. All the workplace costs. All the damaged children and people suffering with unaddressed mental health problems that will struggle to hold down jobs. All the DEI jobs focused on gender rather than other PCs. All the changes made with no basis…all needing to be brought back to lawful and reasonable positions.

And as we are reminded, this is for a tiny minority of people….and even then it’s only a proportion of those who have demanded the world change.

So it got me wondering what the total cost divided by the number of trans-identifying people is. And I concluded we could easily be talking hundreds of thousands…

Any statistically minded folks interested in having a go? I’d love to see that figure on LinkedIn!

Good question. The thing to do is to GI sector by sector.

Maybe start with health: the estimated number of NHS surgeries and cross sex hormone treatments. Plus follow up procedures for when things have gone wrong eg hospital interventions, Gp appointments, blood tests, incontinence pads if they are on prescription etc

Next is the admin cost eg Stonewall or similar fees, training cost inc staff time attending, staff time on policy writing; salary for DEI roles etc Consultation costs inc time of salaried staff/committees

Then facilities costs - changing toilets/physical space to unisex? Estimated legal costs on tribunals/complaints

Just that one sector will produce a huge sum…

Not to mention the shops I now boycott as I abhor their performative promotion of gender ideology and their enabling of children to get chest binders behind their parents’ backs.

edited for grammar

Millions of pounds!!!

Millions maybe. I.E virtually nothing given our budget.

Of course, that doesn’t mean there aren’t other good reasons to oppose it, but I doubt it will even register in the 2nd decimal place of our GDP.

I have evidence that the change in toilet designs have led to worse outcomes in toilets. Lives could have been saved and sexual assaults prevented if all designs had door gaps. However that won’t work in a mixed sex environment because of male voyeurism on females.

We will never know the consequences of disease spread but a distinguished microbiologist has done experiments and concluded that the rise of unisex toilets should be stopped in hospitals.

Although, the reasons designs don’t have door gaps is multifactorial, there’s been a recent trend for floor-to-ceiling cubicle design in mixed sex environments. This is particularly noticeable in schools. It is often attributed to ‘gender-neutral’ design. This is an unregulated term.

This year the DfE school design guidance has changed for toilets to be in single sex suites. However they still have gaps under the doors as an option.

Economically, it will cost establishments money so they conform to building standards and legislation they shouldn’t have broken. From a real life perspective it’s cost more than that because privacy overrides health and safety in a mixed sex environment and vulnerable people have paid the cost.

How much has gender ideology cost this country?

This might sound nitpicking mumsandaunties but 100% please believe me it is not:

• a lot of the false accusations that GC/sex-realist people are "far right" and "anti-rights" are based on spuriously conflating "gender critical" with "anti-gender ideology".

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"Gender ideology" is used in academia and generally in the USA, Europe and many other parts of the world to refer, broadly, to:
Feminism + Reproductive Rights + LGBT rights

"Anti Gender Ideology" = Anti-Feminism + Anti-Reproductive Rights + Anti-LGBT Rights
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"Gender Identity Ideology" = "Transgender Ideology"

"Gender Critical/Sex Realist" = "Anti Gender Identity Ideology/Transgender Ideology"
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Radical Feminism = Anti Gender + Anti Gender Identity Ideology
(NOT "Anti Gender Ideology" as that term is used to bracket together people who are against Feminism + Reproductive Rights + LGBT Rights)
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The easy way to remember, and not give the false impression that you align with Far-right Christian Fundamentalists, the Taliban etc. is to recall that transactivists are always banging on about Gender Identity: what you are born with, the "real you", you are a woman because you identify as a woman, etc.
+++++++++++

I am 100% sure that your question is not,
"How much has Feminism + Reproductive Rights + LGBT rights cost this country" 🙂

I am 100% sure that your question is:
"How much has gender identity ideology cost this country?"
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It is up to you but, to avoid this clarification being raised repeatedly in this thread and to avoid being disrupted by transactivists misrepresenting you as a pal of the Taliban, you could Report your own thread and, in the "Reason" box, ask Mumsnet to amend the Thread Title to "How much has gender identity ideology cost this country?"

It is a VERY good question, by the way! Just too 'effin much in so many ways! xx

“Gender critical” aka in real terms transphobia has cost this country a lot more than an “ideology” which doesn’t exist despite transphobes claiming it does.

Got any figures to back that up?

I'm confused. Are you claiming that trans people don't exist?
That's weird - they clearly do exist and have a belief that gender identity matters more than sex. That belief/ideology has driven structural, legal and institutional change - not all of which has been lawful, resulting in pushback from women's rights campaigners. If you don't like your beliefs being summarised as Gender Identity then what name do you prefer? It is clearly not "fact" and gender identity or trans-ness defies all definition or categorisation which is why your side has failed so badly in legal cases.

If trans people believe that sex is a "nebulous dog whistle" when it is a basic mammalian fact how do you justify any protection for "genderism" or whatever name you want to give it at all?

Thanks for posting this because you have now made me ponder on the idea that the PC of Gender Reassignment shouldn't necessarily exist as a separate category outside of the PC of belief... Maybe going forward that should be the defining differentiation in the law. A PC of GR requires medical proof of Eunuch status to claim, whereas claiming a trans identity would remain a subsection of Belief with lesser protections?

There were some calculations of costing change both in Approved Document T and the EHRC consultation.

The cost of building and maintaining a public toilet is £15k per year according to the British Toilet Association. Public toilets are particularly prone to vandalism and attract misuse (drug users and sex) so many councils give up on them.

Adding a private, mixed sex toilet retrospectively into shopping centres (as per EHRC example) seems an exercise in futility.

Most places just slapped new signs on existing toilets; that won't be expensive to fix. Some new-build toilets may prove challenging though. I think of a school I'm familiar with that has some very swanky open-plan toilet areas with gender-neutral cubicles surrounding rows of sinks.

A lot of pointless & very expensive court time.

Too much time wasted debating and defining policy around the whole nonsense, in companies and public sector organisations.

Money spent converting restrooms to gender neutral, and now back again, in schools, workplaces and restaurants

Changing room wars in gyms and swimming pools

Too boring

Well, how much money did Stonewall raise from their ‘training’ activities? Plus the cost of the time of everyone being ‘trained’ medical costs, Police costs, trans-related (ie sadly most) DEI costs, Court and tribunal costs including all the people involved, time taken up in councils and other public bodies and the civil service, medical costs, research costs eg the new trial, then all the impacts on people which are harder to cost - damage done to physical and mental health, especially of children/young people, impact on all adjacent children of being forced to lie, impact on families, impact on women (including assault and rape as well as removal of access to some facilities, lost jobs/careers…) impact on national data and many research projects (the NHS one on long term health outcomes which doesn’t record sex for example)……. List is pretty much endless

And all for what benefit? Many kids don’t have better mental health as a result of being affirmed, and if some people are benefitting, the number is tiny compared with those who are negatively affected

There's also a tragic human cost. Women die every year from preventable cervical cancer. Keeping the message clear about having smear tests saves lives.

Using ridiculous language like 'cervix-havers' isn't 'inclusive'.

Around 22% of people in the UK have reading difficulties and another 8% or so speak English as a second language.

Warping the language for the less than 0.5% of people who are trans or non-binary actively discriminates against around 30% of people.

How much NHS time and money has been spent on prioritising the rights of trans people over everyone else?

The Scottish government spent nearly £1m on the FWS legal cases.

The phrase ' gender critical' is bandied around by people who don't really understand what it means. Or they impose their own definitions.

Agree that the true cost of all this is not just financial but human.
Unreal how a minority had such an enormous influence on so many sectors of public life. Absolutely unreal.

I think it’s a great idea to estimate a ball park of these figures.

That’s a lot of nonsense you spent ten years writing out there. Too bad I didn’t bother reading it.
Try again.

“Gender critical” is just a posh word for the rich Prosecco pourers to make transphobia more appealing to the general public.

Oh give over Masha. Wide of the mark. Again

Sorry, didn’t mean to OP and disappear.. busy day at work.

The census figures tell me there are 48,000 transwomen in the UK. That’s out of the (wholly discredited) 262,000 who say their gender identity differs from that at birth.

If I think of all of the costs (we could spend all day listing them, from performative paint jobs on trains to direct NHS costs to massive employer training costs) that various posters have listed…well, it’s way more than £48m (£1k per trans woman).

Its more than £480m (£10k per transwoman )

What about £4.8bn (£100k pp)? Well that’s a pretty huge number, but I think it’s probably much more realistic than the others.

Someone make it all make sense.

Rich people drink champagne, not Prosecco.

Also, as pp have said, the (hotly disputed) ideology is that so called “gender” (gender identity) is more important than sex, which is in fact the reason why we distinguish, because there are two and only two sexes. Your personal belief in that is definitely an ideology rather than unassailable truth, because most people don’t believe in it.

Thanks for bumping it for people who are willing and able to read/understand it

A poster on this board once said that the TRA argument is often like a toddler running into a room, shouting bum, then running off. I’m yet to see anything that disputes that.