'Educate yourself'

[PopstarPoppy]

Further to a post I have just read, one of the things that makes me angriest in the gender debate is when adherents of gender ideology tell people who disagree with them to 'educate' themselves. I have even faced this in the workplace. Coming from people whose position has no scientific basis or credibility, it's insulting and blinkered, but it's also chilling. It's like we're living in 1984, where wrongthink exists and should be punished.

We're not denying scientifically proven facts, like climate change or the earth is flat, we're arguing against an ideology. Nobody should be told to 'educate themselves' because they disagree with a position that is nothing more than an opinion. It's just another way to shut down a debate that the gender ideologues know they can't win through reasoned, logical discussion.

I have been told this several times and my reply is always that I have, and that's why I hold the views that I do. I mentioned on another thread that it's my impression that the GC side of the argument has put in a LOT more work in researching and understanding the facts and the issues, and that at least in the UK it's really finally paying off.

It's just another slogan they reach for when they're backed into a corner with nowhere else to go because behind all their assertions is nothing but fluff and lies.

They only say this when they actually believe the pseudoscience, convinced that were we to read about the 378 million genders and how sex is actually a spectrum, then we too would become ardent handmaidens. So telling them that we have indeed "educated" ourselves has no effect on their arguments.

A phrase that enrages me.
I can hear the smugness

Two phrases I cannot stand, one of them is educate yourself, and the other is "Nuff said"

For me that phrase is a red flag. If anything it's made me want to learn less about issues I don't know a lot about.

This phrase absolutely boils my piss. Precisely the opposite action is required- these people have not educated themselves (those who think they have always link to the Nature article which I think was about sex as a spectrum and DSDs). They’re so insufferably smug. They are the same people who say ‘I can see someone didn’t progress beyond High School biology’. 😡

This absolutely incenses me too!

But it’s part of the whole strategy of compliance.

I find the Supreme Court case very helpful.

Although my favourite is asking people to explain what a woman is without resorting to sexist stereotypes. It takes longer but more amusing.

Yes, agreed. The funny thing is that this phrase is also used by climate-change deniers, anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers and other conspiracy theorists. By this they mean, if you go down enough anti-scientific rabbit holes online and leave your incredulity and common sense at the door, then you too will come to believe what they do.

There are a set of stock phrases that act as instructions rather than discussion. Generally its best to ignore them as they dont lead anywhere productive.

The phrase 'thought terminating cliche' was useful in these circumstances.

I couldn't agree more, OP.

As I said on that other thread, go on then. Educate us. With facts and evidence.

.......tumbleweed..........

I like Martina Navratilova’s response. She was told off for not being suitably TWAW, disappeared for a few years, and came back and was more GC than ever. When questioned she said “you told me to educate myself, so I did.”

Honestly, I could have gone either way (so to speak!) with the trans stuff when it first started gaining greater traction.

So I decided to educate myself, and here I am.

Good points
I hate this phrase too. Usually uttered by those who haven't

The remark I hate is ‘evidence’ ?
Designed to diminish a point of view or opinion.

I hated the phrase as well, when they used it incessantly, it's dismissive and another glib way of shutting the conversation down.

But now I usually respond with something along the lines, I did and now it's my educated opinion is it's a load of bollocks. 😂
The rent-a-gobs don't seem to use it as much anymore, what a shame. 🤭

You think expecting evidence is designed to diminish a point?

Erm, no.

Those saying this do not have a solitary clue

I did educate myself.
I used to be very naive about the whole thing.

I was very taken in by mermaids propaganda about young children born in the wrong body and thought the correct thing to do was anything that ensured these children would 'pass'.

Then I came across teens with ROGD before there was even a phrase for it and thought.."hang on, something isn't right", then it started going even further with teens being encouraged to question their 'gender identity' .....

I guess it could have gone the other way if there hadn't suddenly been so very many teens caught up in it, but at the point of realising that, I went off to educate myself.

*
I'm a guy
*

Interestingly, as GC guy I have come up against something similiar.

Part of "educating myself" is actually talking to you lovely knowledgable people on Mumsnet.

I do find it a bit strange when some people come back with "It's not a womens job to do your work for you" when actually all I have done is ask for a point in the right direction from the people who are in the know.

Some people have been amazingly helpful. Others less so!

It reminds me of when I used to teach BTEC Food Tech. Students would submit their coursework for marking and then would have some time to make improvements before the final submission date.

Problem is, BTEC demanded an adherence to a strict set of principles and I was not permitted to give ANY actual useful feedback. The conversation would end up with a student and I going around in circles... Them asking "What do I need to do to make my cake better, Sir?" And all I could say is "Just make a better cake" followed by them asking "Whats wrong with it, Sir?" and me saying "Well... It's like this... you just need to make it better." Which was swiftly followed by them saying "Do I need more sugar, Sir?" and again all I could say is "Well, do YOU think it needs more sugar?" This usually went on until the student went mental and complained to parents that I wouldn't help them.

So like Gender Identity and BTEC Food Tech, Feminism also has its "thought terminating cliches."

"It's not a womens job to help a man" being one of them.

I thought we were ALL meant to help each other on this journey because really, no one gets out alive!

Not all opinions expressed will necessarily have hard factual evidence to support a view held. Not everyone will be able to instantly at their fingertips provide ‘evidence’ to support whatever view held.
Demanding it (and the tone does do that), is designed to diminish the argument or point being made.
It is like saying unless you do provide evidence sharpish and can then your point of view is irrelevant.
I dislike it. Not that being able to provide evidence to back up a view is pointless. It isn’t. But when I see this written in response to a view expressed, it often comes across as a put down.

Right, got it. The expectation of evidence to back up a point, view or opinion is a put-down.

I was always told to show my workings.

MyShyCat
Hmmm, you've got "managing to sound like a reasonable guy while still mansplaining" down to a T, don't you?

It isn't feminism's or women's job to explain men's misogyny to them. If women had all the power, then perhaps you'd have some kind of argument there. But we don't, and having to fight all the time for our rights as well as having to explain to every lazy man who comes along why we are fighting for our rights, is not what I was put on this earth to do. If you want to understand misogyny, look into yourself and the patriarchal system that raised you.

Women's experiences are not like a BTEC, we are not teenagers, and you are certainly not our teacher.

I've begun to look at misogyny as a kind of "original sin" that some women claim that all men have.

Is it possible that not all men hate women?

I believe it's possible, but it's a big issue that would be more suited to a thread of its own.

To get back to the topic, what do you think of adherents of gender ideology who tell people to 'educate' themselves?