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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.

129 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · 30/05/2026 18:22

https://x.com/LibDems/status/2060771889295900821/photo/1

Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.
Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.
Ed Davey says the EHRC code has failed in its objective and calls for post legislative scrutiny of the GRA & EA. Presumably to legally allow blokes in the ladies.
OP posts:
Brainworm · Yesterday 11:51

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 11:16

It is important to recognise that although it cannot cover every scenario, the EHRC has provided key explanations and worked examples, also based on wide consultation, that every organisation can take and apply in its own context with common sense. If a service provider is not sure, it can and should take legal advice.

It's interesting to contrast the obligations in the context of disability discrimination, and those based on transgender discrimination.

In the context of disability, only 'reasonable' adjustments are required. The meaning of 'reasonable' includes cost, effect on other people, resources available, practicality, etc.

In other words, it is accepted that there will be circumstances where that it neither practical nor affordable to make certain adjustments for, for instance, a wheelchair user, and therefore is not 'reasonable' and not required.
Other adjustments must be made, but the law accepts that there are limits.

Contrast that with what seems to have become the norm to avoid discrimination against transpeople: transpeople 'must not be left without provision', and that is interpreted as either access to whatever toilet/changing room they choose, the provision of extra 'fourth spaces' or, as seems to be happening a lot, complete removal of single-sex provision and replacing it with all-mixed-sex individual lockable 'universal' toilets.

No weighing up of the cost, the disruption, available resources, the negative effects on other users, the practicality - in other words, the reasonableness of the adjustments to existing toilet provision, which is perfectly adequate for the huge majority of the population.

I don't understand why adjustments which are actually physically needed by people with disabilities may be subjected to a 'reasonableness' test, whereas adjustments which are not needed but simply 'preferred' by transpeople have to be provided, with no reasonableness test.

In reality no transperson is 'left with no provision', as long as there is a men's, women's, and accessible toilet. The provision is there, they are not physically unable to use it, but they choose not to use it.

And on that basis, existing toilet provision can be removed and replaced by an inferior, unsafe, inadequate, unpopular alternative in order to cater for a tiny percentage of the population, without any consideration of whether or not these adjustments are 'reasonable'.

IANAL, and I can't understand - why is there a 'reasonableness' test for adjustments on the basis of disability discrimination, but none on the basis of transgender discrimination?

This an interesting point. In the EA, the duty to make reasonable adjustments is required only for people with the PC as it is recognised that equal treatment will often result in unfairness. The other PC are considered to just require equal treatment to require fairness.

I think the PC of GR is largely about people who do not want to be categorised by their biological sex. I think many people think that because of this, the comparator is people who don’t have an issue being categorised by their sex (where sex matters). However, others argue that the comparator is another person of the same sex who doesn’t have an issue being categorised as their sex.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 12:02

Brainworm · Yesterday 11:51

This an interesting point. In the EA, the duty to make reasonable adjustments is required only for people with the PC as it is recognised that equal treatment will often result in unfairness. The other PC are considered to just require equal treatment to require fairness.

I think the PC of GR is largely about people who do not want to be categorised by their biological sex. I think many people think that because of this, the comparator is people who don’t have an issue being categorised by their sex (where sex matters). However, others argue that the comparator is another person of the same sex who doesn’t have an issue being categorised as their sex.

The other PC are considered to just require equal treatment to require fairness.

But that doesn't work. If you are a Christian, for instance, your major festivals are bank holidays, but no similar accommodation is made for other religions.

A restaurant does not have to accommodate toddlers.

Service providers don't have to provide an alternative for pregnant women if they cannot be accommodated safely.

You could also apply the same reasoning to single sex services. Where there are limited staff in a hospital, a request for same sex care may delay treatment, or it may not be possible.

PassTheHanky · Yesterday 12:28

HappilyHarriet · Yesterday 10:14

Who needs Lib Dems when you’ve got Labour . 19 out of 28 signatures are Labour. They haven’t got the memo yet.

37 signatures now. Depressing to see that the majority, 23 of them, are women selling other women down the road.

PassTheHanky · Yesterday 13:01

I've written to my Liberal MP, Richard Foord, to ask if he'll be approving the EHRC code. I expect to get the same waffle about inclusion as usual but you never know........

nutmeg7 · Yesterday 13:15

Theeyeballsinthesky · Yesterday 07:40

It would seem not

'women without breasts due to an illness look like men'

What??? Marie Goldman is an idiot.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Yesterday 16:21

womendeserveequalhumanrights · 30/05/2026 20:39

Fucks sake Ed, I'm a GNC woman who is not 'feminine' in any way and EVEN if every time I went to the loo I was challenged and it took me opening my mouth and a female voice coming out and /or someone looking again and seeing the female gait and female hip to shoulder ratio, my shorter height and smaller hands etc for them to realise I'm female then I'd STILL be in favour of single sex spaces.

Because, in the grand scheme of life, a few awkward and quickly resolved but ultimately safe interactions is better than flashing, voyeurism, sexual assault and rape in what are supposed to be women only spaces. Unfeminine GNC women care about other women, Ed. I realise this is an alien concept 'caring' about people, from the sounds of it. But please TRY and understand (I know it's difficult, please just try).

Me facing slightly awkward moments would be better than some Muslim women (and other faiths) having to completely exclude from public life as their religion prohibits mixed sex private spaces, and they can no longer trust that something labelled 'women only' is in fact so.

It would be better than female survivors of rape and coercive control and domestic abuse not being able to leave the house, Ed, as they're left with literally zero sufficient private space provision which is single sex.

Because not everyone is a totally fucking selfish wanker like you clearly are Ed.

Have you ever been threatened by someone with 160% the punch power of you Ed? Have you? On average any male that has gone through puberty has 160% the punch power of women. Any women, whatever they wear.

How I wish it were possible for you to have to go to the toilet with a load of men who looked like the Rock (i.e. probably not quite the same differential in punch power, but a significant amount) of whom a certain proportion, and you couldn't know which ones, were likely to commit a crime against you and for whom the very act of entering that space with you was a massive red flag.

Fucks sake Ed, do you literally have nothing better to do than shit on women? Including the GNC ones.

Yours a GNC woman.

Edited to add: I'm also a mother, despite not being feminine (pause because your mind is probably literally blown right now, Ed) and I'd put up with even quite aggressive interactions from other women (who note do not have 160% my punch power) for the sake of the safety, privacy and dignity of my daughters. Again, I know altruism and empathy clearly not your thing Ed. But I'm pretty sure my daughters are less safe than I was at their age, partly because of men like you Ed.

Please try and understand. Men, however they feel and whatever they wear have 160% the punch power of women. Some men who want into the women's have bad motivations. Look up 'Katie' Dolatowski. You're on his side, Ed, right now. Not a good look.

Edited

Unfeminine GNC women care about other women

This is the key difference between us and trans rights wants supporters. We would rather be challenged every time we use the loo than have a woman or girl be hurt because we care about women and girls. Trans-identifying men care only about themselves.

MyAutumnCrow · Yesterday 16:25

Arran2024 · 30/05/2026 18:28

Lib Dems have zero influence. I should know - i have a lib dem mp. Hopefully the gov will ignore this. But I will write to my mp (who I think is secretly supportive).

Oh god, some of them are absolutely barking.

I do admire Liberal Voice for Women though, pushing back within the Party that they once had reason to respect and admire.

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 16:31

TheNoWord · Yesterday 09:45

Here we go….28 signatures so far

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/65938

Signed by the usual suspects.

I see my MP has signed this. Can you explain what she is signing in favour of as I intend to write to her. I met her once at a local farmer's market and spoke to her extensively about my concerns. She was formerly part of the Socialist Campaign Group - as are most of the other Labour signees. She's very pally with Kate Osborne.

mypronounsaremine · Yesterday 16:54

PassTheHanky · Yesterday 12:28

37 signatures now. Depressing to see that the majority, 23 of them, are women selling other women down the road.

...and two who had signed have now withdrawn. It's all happening today.

edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/65938#tab-withdrawn

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · Yesterday 16:58

mypronounsaremine · Yesterday 16:54

...and two who had signed have now withdrawn. It's all happening today.

edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/65938#tab-withdrawn

Oooh I wonder why, did they actually get around to reading it and realise what they'd signed was bonkers or is something else going on. 🧐
or
Am I confused, are they withdrawing there support for the guidance?

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 17:03

mypronounsaremine · Yesterday 16:54

...and two who had signed have now withdrawn. It's all happening today.

edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/65938#tab-withdrawn

I've just written to my MP ( Paula Barker) who signed it. I got an automated response in recognition of receipt, and on that response it was stated that she "no longer signs early day motions since she thinks they are pointless"....so I'm interested to know her reasoning for why she signed such a motion yesterday.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Yesterday 17:13

TheNoWord · Yesterday 09:45

Here we go….28 signatures so far

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/65938

Signed by the usual suspects.

A useful list of MPs to tactically unseat in the next GE.

Of course, my former MP Kate Osborne is one of the sponsors.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · Yesterday 17:17

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 17:03

I've just written to my MP ( Paula Barker) who signed it. I got an automated response in recognition of receipt, and on that response it was stated that she "no longer signs early day motions since she thinks they are pointless"....so I'm interested to know her reasoning for why she signed such a motion yesterday.

virtue signalling.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · Yesterday 17:20

PassTheHanky · Yesterday 12:28

37 signatures now. Depressing to see that the majority, 23 of them, are women selling other women down the road.

Since no one has at any time yet actually mentioned that the whole point of the guidance was to protect women and gay rights, and the issues that have arisen by trans people using 'the facilities that make THEM more comfortable' while causing absolute bloody havoc for others and removing their rights -

I wonder if they actually even know this.

I don't at this point have much faith in many MPs being able to find their arse with both hands or know what day it is.

BeKindWisely · Yesterday 19:33

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 11:16

It is important to recognise that although it cannot cover every scenario, the EHRC has provided key explanations and worked examples, also based on wide consultation, that every organisation can take and apply in its own context with common sense. If a service provider is not sure, it can and should take legal advice.

It's interesting to contrast the obligations in the context of disability discrimination, and those based on transgender discrimination.

In the context of disability, only 'reasonable' adjustments are required. The meaning of 'reasonable' includes cost, effect on other people, resources available, practicality, etc.

In other words, it is accepted that there will be circumstances where that it neither practical nor affordable to make certain adjustments for, for instance, a wheelchair user, and therefore is not 'reasonable' and not required.
Other adjustments must be made, but the law accepts that there are limits.

Contrast that with what seems to have become the norm to avoid discrimination against transpeople: transpeople 'must not be left without provision', and that is interpreted as either access to whatever toilet/changing room they choose, the provision of extra 'fourth spaces' or, as seems to be happening a lot, complete removal of single-sex provision and replacing it with all-mixed-sex individual lockable 'universal' toilets.

No weighing up of the cost, the disruption, available resources, the negative effects on other users, the practicality - in other words, the reasonableness of the adjustments to existing toilet provision, which is perfectly adequate for the huge majority of the population.

I don't understand why adjustments which are actually physically needed by people with disabilities may be subjected to a 'reasonableness' test, whereas adjustments which are not needed but simply 'preferred' by transpeople have to be provided, with no reasonableness test.

In reality no transperson is 'left with no provision', as long as there is a men's, women's, and accessible toilet. The provision is there, they are not physically unable to use it, but they choose not to use it.

And on that basis, existing toilet provision can be removed and replaced by an inferior, unsafe, inadequate, unpopular alternative in order to cater for a tiny percentage of the population, without any consideration of whether or not these adjustments are 'reasonable'.

IANAL, and I can't understand - why is there a 'reasonableness' test for adjustments on the basis of disability discrimination, but none on the basis of transgender discrimination?

Not read to the end of the thread, so someone lawerly may have responded to this.
Just wanted to say what an interesting and excellent point this is- and I hope it is discussed further!
(Also, just to unashamedly save it for my personal little catalogue of excellent FWR points made)

BeKindWisely · Yesterday 19:34

Not read to the end of the thread, so someone lawerly may have responded to this.
Just wanted to say what an interesting and excellent point this is- and I hope it is discussed further!
(Also, just to unashamedly save it for my personal little catalogue of excellent FWR points made)

BeKindWisely · Yesterday 19:44

Sorry for the weird double post!

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 19:55

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · Yesterday 17:17

virtue signalling.

She used to belong to the 'Socialist Campaign Group', which numbers about 28 Labour MPs, and they all seem to have signed it. Weird how old, traditional Socialists like John Mcdonnell have gone along with this. I don't get it.

Cars4Gov · Yesterday 20:02

51 now...

MyAutumnCrow · Yesterday 20:19

Cars4Gov · Yesterday 20:02

51 now...

Doesn’t matter. EDMs are pointless. Except that now we now who wants to break the law rather than legislate for it. The Labour MPs are especially pathetic.

And 51 is fewer than 1% of MPs.

fromorbit · Yesterday 20:52

mypronounsaremine · Yesterday 16:54

...and two who had signed have now withdrawn. It's all happening today.

edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/65938#tab-withdrawn

51 signed 2 left

No Sir ED Davey signature ! Most of the Lib Dems have not signed. The two who took their signatures away are both Lib Dems Tim Farron and Andrew George. Which is very interesting indeed. Give it a few days but the speculation we were making on this thread that Davey's letter was some kind of ploy and the Lib Dems are split on this is confirmed.

Numbers signed by party.

Labour 23 /402
Lib Dem 22 /72
Green 2 /5
SNP 2 /58
Your party 1 / 1 [Only Zarah is standing as YP in Parliament]
Independent 1 / 13

Most of the Labour MPs as others have said are members of the far left socialist campaign group who are serial rebels.

The lack of SNP signatures is telling. One bitten twice shy.

Where are other Green MPs? Denyer is off on mental health reasons.

Also no Jeremy Corbyn.

ItsCoolForCats · Yesterday 21:14

fromorbit · Yesterday 20:52

51 signed 2 left

No Sir ED Davey signature ! Most of the Lib Dems have not signed. The two who took their signatures away are both Lib Dems Tim Farron and Andrew George. Which is very interesting indeed. Give it a few days but the speculation we were making on this thread that Davey's letter was some kind of ploy and the Lib Dems are split on this is confirmed.

Numbers signed by party.

Labour 23 /402
Lib Dem 22 /72
Green 2 /5
SNP 2 /58
Your party 1 / 1 [Only Zarah is standing as YP in Parliament]
Independent 1 / 13

Most of the Labour MPs as others have said are members of the far left socialist campaign group who are serial rebels.

The lack of SNP signatures is telling. One bitten twice shy.

Where are other Green MPs? Denyer is off on mental health reasons.

Also no Jeremy Corbyn.

I'm surprised my Labour MP hasn't signed it, but there is still time. It does seem a bit pointless though.

RoyalCorgi · Yesterday 21:16

I literally cannot stand the stupidity any more. What is wrong with these people? How is it that, in one of the most educated, literate populations to exist in the history of humanity, we have managed to elect a bunch of utter morons who can't be trusted to put their clothes on the right way round to represent us?

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 21:23

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Yesterday 16:21

Unfeminine GNC women care about other women

This is the key difference between us and trans rights wants supporters. We would rather be challenged every time we use the loo than have a woman or girl be hurt because we care about women and girls. Trans-identifying men care only about themselves.

That's a really good point, selffellatingouroborosofhate.

And thank you for reminding me about womendeserveequalhumanrights' wonderful post from a few days ago, I meant to respond at the time by saying how impressed I was not only by the points made, but how passionately they were expressed.
Sometimes great posts get swallowed up by the fast pace of responses!

I too have been challenged, I too have resolved it in a matter of moments with a few friendly words and a smile, and I too gladly put up with that if it helps keep men out of women's spaces.

HenriettaSwanLeavitt · Yesterday 21:31

fromorbit · Yesterday 20:52

51 signed 2 left

No Sir ED Davey signature ! Most of the Lib Dems have not signed. The two who took their signatures away are both Lib Dems Tim Farron and Andrew George. Which is very interesting indeed. Give it a few days but the speculation we were making on this thread that Davey's letter was some kind of ploy and the Lib Dems are split on this is confirmed.

Numbers signed by party.

Labour 23 /402
Lib Dem 22 /72
Green 2 /5
SNP 2 /58
Your party 1 / 1 [Only Zarah is standing as YP in Parliament]
Independent 1 / 13

Most of the Labour MPs as others have said are members of the far left socialist campaign group who are serial rebels.

The lack of SNP signatures is telling. One bitten twice shy.

Where are other Green MPs? Denyer is off on mental health reasons.

Also no Jeremy Corbyn.

No Plaid Cymru either. They have 4 MPs and support self-ID and gender-instead-of-sex for services etc

Swipe left for the next trending thread