RCN now waiting for guidance on how to implement the guidance on how to implement the SC ruling

[PeppyHam]

RCN response to yesterday's publication of EHRC guidance:

"It is essential that central guidance from all health departments is published without delay. That guidance must be unequivocal in setting out how health and care services should apply the updated EHRC code."

RCN statement on the updated EHRC Code of Practice for service providers, public functions and associations | Royal College of Nursing

No doubt when the health departments publish such guidance, the RCN will call for guidance in interpreting it.

And so it starts... there will be endless committee meetings before they can decide to start following the law. Can't possibly be lawful guidance without committee say-so!

Indeed!

Although, don't forget the public vote on whether the law should be followed or not. Like with the Hampstead ponds.

Oh god, this is going to go to so many committees, consultations, staff groups and governance groups - before they finally decide they need further clarification.

It's just so nuanced and complicated (it's not)

Here we go RCN.

Men use men's toilets, changing rooms and spaces. Women use womens.

If they are one of those men who like to pretend they are a lady and object strenously to using their same sex facilities you're going to have to find them somewhere else - probably disadvantaging other groups, like disabled people for whom it isn't a choice.

You are going to have be clear with them, that although sad :(, they cannot force women (or men) to put them first in all ways and suck up the discomfort and lack of dignity that their presence causes in single sex areas.

You need to explain to these special men that when women ask for a woman chaperone, their special identity does not count. If the woman is happy with either sex then that's fine. Same goes for a woman pretending to be a man - men have the right to choose their own sex too.

For single sex bays - only people of the same sex go there, no matter whether they're wearing a nightie or pjs.

This whole thing can be dragged out for at least an entire annual cycle of subcommittees and staff/membership consultations, and will still need to be "approved " by whichever governing body all the committees report to. And, if that final meeting is not quorate, well then no decision can possibly be made. So it will go directly to the Chair of the governing body, and if she or he doesn't feel comfortable making a unilateral decision, it will go back to committee for another round of discussions.

Believe me, this can go on for years.

And the only recourse staff and members will have will be legal action. Which will take years.

Well, that was easy! 👍🏻

I know - and all for free. No painful (and expensive) time wasting committees needed.

If only.

I don’t understand how these people even make it past breakfast. The agony of an unguidanced decision between toast/cereal/eggs/porridge must absolutely floor them long before they have reached the workplace.

I think we're gonna need a bigger JKR legal fund.

I could even write a Be Kind version. Obviously I wouldn't change the law or meaning but I could soften the blow in case of Bananarama concerns ("it ain't what you say, it's the way that you say it").

Like this, for example:

If they are a biological male who holds a belief that they are a woman and/or who identifies as a woman and object strenously to using their same sex facilities you're going to have to find them somewhere else

... and so on.

It's amazing how easy it is to do all of this without committees.

Obviously they could always choose to waste lots of money on court cases instead of getting on with the obvious.

Isn’t this guidance due to become statutory in 40 days time? They’ll be no committees needed then!

I know I've been a bit glib about it, but I genuinely think that no service or organization will change a thing, and will simply rely on women and all disabled people (because the using the accessible spaces as the "third space" will overwhelmingly affect them) NOT having the resources to sue them. If no one sues, they can just continue to ignore the law as long as they want to.

Well you'd think so but since it's already THE LAW and they still feel unable to implement it, who can say?

Why is someone who 'objects strenuously to using their same sex facilities' entitled to a 'somewhere else' of their own?

It's not like they need 'somewhere else', like disabled people need adaptations in an accessible toilet.

Label toilets and changing rooms as 'BIO MALES' and 'BIO FEMALES' and even if he says he is a woman, even if he has 'transitioned', even if he holds a GRC, a trans-IDing man is still a male, so he is NOT being deprived of access to toilet facilities.

If he chooses not to use the 'All Bio Males' toilet, that's his decision, but why should he therefore be entitled to a 'somewhere else'?

In what way is it discriminatory to require a male to use facilities designated for all males regardless of gender ID?

In my mind that's obvious, but I know that's just me being awkward, I like to strip away complexities and get down to basics.
I admit I sometimes oversimplify but there's value in that I think, it tests the counter-arguments.

edited for typo.
edited again for second typo. Time for some caffeine, I think!

The situation where the RCN have agreed with/ backed the placing of trans identified men on female psychiatric wards must now come to an end. Social Workers, most particularly those who are Approved Mental Health Professionals under the 1984 act, will also have to wake up. They will no longer be able to detain trans identified men to female wards, and given that the ward must be named, I can't wait for the wailing and gnashing of teeth!

Labelling loos 'Bio Males' and 'Bio Females' is a bit on the nose. But I like it! 😃Trouble is, the sacred caste have been tip-toed around for so long now. They have grown accustomed to having everything the NHS (and many other sectors) all their own way. There will be stamping of feet!

Oh dear.

Although the guidance was very short on plain, sensible information on what to do really. Bridge managed to fuck up the clarity of the original. The Peter and Jane version needed.

Provide single sex spaces and resources
Provide additional spaces and resources as needed
Balance these on service size/user number

The 'how taf do we deal with a very obvious bloke insisting he's not a bloke and waving legally false information while still fulfilling our duty of providing sex based provision for women that's free of men, harassment and a choice between submission to belief or exclusion, and without paying a fuckton to them in court' advice is what's wholly missing from the guidance. That's going to be important.

The people running the RCN should be ashamed of themselves.

My DMiL was a proud nurse all her working life and is utterly horrified by how they are behaving.

(EX RCN member here) Peter and Jane version.

Peter is a boy. Peter is going swimming. He is 10 now and can get changed by himself. Peter wonders which changing room he should use.

He asks Jane 'Jane, should I use the men or women's changing room?'

Jane answers 'The Men's of course Peter'

'But I'm not a man' says Peter 'And sometimes you let me wear your pink sparkly jumper Jane'

'Don't worry Peter' says Jane 'You will grow up to be a man and you can still wear pink sparkly jumpers. As long as you let me play football with you'

'Oh' says Peter 'That's a relief'

I don't understand why law isn't followed the day after the judgement. I must be thick

The Royal College of Nursing are an absolute disgrace.

In the UK, nursing and midwifery are highly female-dominated professions. Approximately 89% of registered nursing and midwifery professionals are female, alongside a male minority of roughly 11%. When broken down by specific roles, female representation is even higher in specialized areas.

This is what I think too.

Fantastic 😁
This needs to go to all the schools too.

Keeping it simple this is it! All these organisations who relied on Stonewall and genderered intenlligence and global butterflies and any others to design and dictate their diversity policies are now left terribly confused. They Now need to get back to basics and follow the law. Perhaps Mumsnet FWR could offer their services. There's definitely an opening here!

May be they would find it easier to grasp the facts through the use of pictures of, say, females/women and males/men with arrows pointing to relevant parts of the anatomy. MNetters are great at diagrams!