dd 15 - eye opening books

[Callmegenf]

Name change, I am dealing with a situation where my dd 15's personal space is not being respected by an older male. She is part of a hobby group outside of school where teenagers and adults mix. There is a man in his 60s who is placing his hands on her shoulder when he speaks to her, which has sort of happened about 5 times in the last 8 months or so. His hand lingers there until he's done talking. I will of course mention this to the group lead but when I asked what dd does when he invades her personal space like that she said she looks down. He also does this with a couple of other teenage girls but not with all the girls that attend.

I am trying to teach her to look up and move away and be assertive of her personal space. Ideally she'd be brave and say, please do not put your hand on my shoulder, but I don't think she is up for that.

Confusingly I was the opposite at her age, very aware of predators and had a way (look, body language) to keep unwanted men at an arms length. I did read all sorts of feminist literature at a young age, books my mum had lying around and I think that helped me with that.

I have a feeling that if she reads some eye opening literature it will help her be more assertive as she becomes more aware of the age old power imbalance and how that gets exploited too often.

Based on training I did, what the guys is doing would be seen as sexual harassment in my work place, I think.

Please share your eye opening feminist book recommendations.

For a gentle start, does she know "Pride and Prejudice"? It's not about inappropriate touching as such, but about a young woman who (already, over 200 years ago!) was incredibly good at saying No.

Lizzie sees off Mr Collins (who won't take no for an answer), Mr Darcy (until she is sure that she wants what he wants) and Lady Catherine ( who thinks that age and rank give her a right to coerce and interfere). All have higher status than she does but she doesn't let that break her boundaries. An excellent role model!

I wouldn't bother with books but I'd recommend learning boxing or krav maga or a martial art. Not suggesting she should fight him, but these skills give a physical confidence that changes the way you interact with people who try to dominate you. Physical strength makes assertiveness come naturally.

Interestingly, I think she has read this and liked it.

They possibly give over-confidence, though I am not saying learning some martial arts would not be helpful. Most women are unable to overcome even men who look weedy or who are old, because of having less upper body strength. Over-confidence can land one in some hairy (and worse) situations. Read some books.

What about her dad? Does he spend much time with her? If not, really get him to start doing this. She needs to have the feeling of self regard and support that came come with this to build up a don’t you dare come near me aura and very big boundaries.

This man should be out. Your DD’s dad could ago and tell whoever organised this hobby group and say either this man stops going anywhere near the girls or he will call the police.

I'd suggest reading or listening to the audiobook of The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence by Gavin de Becker. The key message is to listen to your gut and how to spot danger signs then get yourself out of the situation.

Young girls and women quite often actively ignore warning signs they may be feeling for fear of causing offense or looking stupid. The book is about empowering you to listen to those warning signs and realising they're there for a reason.

DD's dad is brilliant and respectful. However he is very conflict avoidant.

I’m not sure it’s something you can learn from a book tbh

Have you spoken to her about how you think she should handle it? I think she’s likely to model how she sees you behaving to be honest. Also the conversation around instinct and not being embarrassed to follow it. And also the point that these men take advantage of the fact the woman/girl won’t speak up

i remember when dd was little an old man stopped us and started chatting away and I was too polite to end the conversation. When we finally escaped DD turned to me and said ‘I thought we weren’t supposed to talk to strangers’ and that gave me the kick I needed because I really didn’t want her growing up being a people pleaser like me!

DD is 15 and very happy to stand up for herself but I have had to talk to her about the balance so she can ensure she is safe

She's 15. Is it really her responsibility to challenge an older man who's inappropriately putting his hands on her and presumably is in a position of power in the group?
I'd have thought this should be nipped in the bud asap with a clear word with the group leader that adults should not be touching teenagers / children / girls in this way. It may be innocent but it's a power play and inappropriate.

Once it's dealt with by the adults, then is the time to discuss with her strategies and the dynamics of being assertive in the face of inappropriate behaviour from adults.

Did DD tell you about this or did you witness it for yourself? Either way, the group lead shouldn't need to be told. They should have nipped it in the bud already.

I hate this kind of creepy old-man flirting, disguised as grandfatherly affection. I've got a special deadpan look for it, and if it escalates to touching, I shrug them off and move away immediately.

Tbf one strategy is speaking up - which I assume she has done by speaking to mum

however OP - if this has been going on for a while in front of others I would definitely ask them why it has been ignored when it’s clearly inappropriate

This is exactly how I feel. The adults need to start adulting. It's not her responsibility to be dealing with an older predatory man. And in fact, her response is actually tactically sensible - because who knows how a man like this will react if rebuffed? I'm sure we've all been in situations where we've behaved in a placatory way to men who we perceive as a threat.

I found this book very useful as a young woman. It's very accessible.

Try to persuade him to go and speak to the organiser.

It does not have to be a conflict. It has to be a straightforward, clear statement, made in private with the organiser, that this must stop.

It’s great to encourage young women to be assertive but I think this is a situation where older women need to set an example. The leaders of the group need to tackle this man for inappropriate behaviour

You are right, dh or I will speak to the group leader. Yes, this man is in position of power.

I have also encouraged her to keep him 'at an arms length' in terms of personal space but the thought that she has to watch her back at the activity appalls me so much. I have ordered the Gift of Fear.

For some reason I used to be a lot more assertive with boys and men at that age but then my friends and I were more aware of creepy men and dd has had a pretty sheltered upbringing.

I'm sure that's the right thing to do. Hopefully your DD hasn't yet encountered this because schools / organisations have improved safeguarding policies and adults understand more about boundaries etc.
The fact that an organisation enables this / or sees but ignores it does raise red flags. Hopefully it'll stop once you've spoken.

I sell firearms (legally! In the US!) and when I'm talking to a woman who isn't familiar with the mentality of lethal self-defense, but I'm confident that she has the technical training to be safe handling one, I tell her to buy this book. Buy, steal, borrow, pirate, anything.

I'd also consider sitting her down and explaining the fight/flight/fawn responses to her to figure out with her what her fear response is. Make it a conversation, explore her feelings with her.

I know what you mean - but much depends on the instructor.

My daughters Krav Maga was taught by a female ex military officer who made it clear that number 1 was to avoid being in the situation in the first place ( be aware of your surroundings; don’t hamper your senses by wearing earphones etc). She did a lot of work on recognising boundary crossing and how to handle that verbally etc first.

Number 2 was not panicking or losing your voice ( q lots of teenage girls yelling loudly). Number 3 was how to hurt or shock attacker badly enough to be able to get away. It’s not a case of how to fight them. She was very clear about the respective strength of men and women.

Tbf most male instructors say similar. My Jujitsu sensei was very keen on 'just run away' and had a head full of stats about your survival chances of eg running away from someone with a gun (very low chance of them hitting a moving target) and something like 90% of fights that last more then 10 seconds end up on the ground where men have an even bigger advantage.

He was very conservative about his woman's chances in a fight. He said that he was fairly confident that his female greenbelts (that after three gradings that takes at least a year or 18months of training) could manage to fend off a drunk man for example. But Jujitsu is a reactive martial art, all the moves are blocks or throws from an initial attacking move. there's no offensive moves at all until the higher belts.

At this point the situation is well beyond your daughter to sort out. By you and her father stepping up to nip this in the bud by addressing this with the group leader and in turn by them taking it seriously, it shows that the man's behaviour is not acceptable. It gives her a good model for addressing anything in a future environment, such as a workplace.

The gift of fear is a good book. As someone stated above, your daughter's reaction to this situation is a very normal and also sensible response. When in danger our body can go into fight, flight, freeze or fawn/appease. In not making any waves in the moment, your daughter is probably in fawn/appease. It's not a chosen behaviour but something that is evolutionarily designed to keep us safe. She, or more likely her survival instincts have quickly made the calculation that this is a more powerful man in a social setting and the best way to stop it from escalating is to under react.
Our fawn/appease or freeze response is not always correct but is trying to protect us....

That's not so sad fawn/appease or frieze can't be overridden but it take conscious effort to first notice it and then assess whether it really is appropriate and then do something different.

I suspect that doing some sort of martial art will in time help her choose her response more consciously by helping her get used to and feeling more competent in dealing with threatening situations , giving her some tools and giving her space to pause and find a different way of dealing with a situation.

Last post should have said "that's not to say"

I left it too late to edit

Not directly relevant to this situation, but an excellent wellspring of feminist anger is Invisible Women. That should build up her fury to not accept the sexist ways the world treats her.

I think one of the things that can help take the power out of it is to feel less alone, would she be happy to talk to the other girls it happens to?

If they feel the same, it might empower her a bit or at least they might mock him together and make him less scary in her head. They might make a plan together to rescue each other, for example or talk to the leader together.

It sounds like you should talk to the leader to get it to stop, but I think there is power in women coming together and calling him "creepy fucker," or "handsy wanker," or something behind his back. It makes it a him problem, makes him a joke and she won't be so embarrassed about it.