"Who was a gay man"

[noblegiraffe]

I've been reading quite a lot of responses to Rowling's post about her trans friend and this one has made me think a lot because it wasn't even something that registered when I read her post. It's 'transing away the gay' in action, and I'd not even noticed. I strongly doubt Rowling meant it that way either, so I think it is a perspective that deserves a wider audience.

"I’ve been thinking about this and I hope this reply makes sense.

Firstly - I get it. I understand that a gay man might be a friend and his desire to be called she (hence his performance which does help with that) is something a friend might do. I also understand that this doesn’t mean you think he’s “lesser” - because obviously, women aren’t lesser so that’s not in your thinking. I also get the kinship feeling that happens with men like him - and the massive “othering” that happens from our (other gay men) side.

That said, you are referring to a gay man as “she”. You also said he “was” a gay man.

He still is. You can’t make someone not gay in the same way you can’t make someone not a man - who is a man.

And the effect of “who was a gay man” immediately provokes a very strong emotional reaction in me. “Was” a gay man. Ergo isn’t any more. It’s hard to explain but seeing any gay man described as effectively “ex gay” is unavoidably alarming to me.

Also, while again, the intent is not to denigrate - I know that, because there’s nothing inherently lesser or undesirable about “female coded energy” - that energy is found much more in gay men than straight men. It is really important to me to make sure people understand gay men are as much men as any other men. Every single one.

And the effect of even one exception - within “gay man world” - is to continue the problem we have with our perceived “femininity”. Plenty of gay men already reject men they consider “feminine” (and I don’t mean camp here i mean the soft gentle men) and those men are the most vulnerable to incorrectly concluding they are “better off” as mimics of women.

This is never the case. While I would never force people to undo surgeries and hormone treatments they are now healthy on, going forward we should I think be advocating for “no one is better off as a mimic of the opposite sex”, and “disguising attributes as opposite sex” should be off the table.

And so I will never call another gay man “she” again. I won’t call a straight one she either but people who make an exception nearly always do that for soft, gentle gay men - and I know it’s not malicious, not homophobic and not because they see these men as “lesser”. It’s because they recognise kinship. I understand that.

But my reply is because this is what keeps a certain pressure on gay men, especially the soft gently younger ones to start questioning “am I also “better off” as a “she””. It’s effectively wider “social transitioning” which isn’t neutral. It’s not a zero impact choice. There is some impact.

Because you’re also not using “she her” for him - for his benefit - he’s not here? I means granted he might read it but - the effect is to tell me you don’t consider this gay man to be a gay man anymore. On account of traits and mannerisms he has - that a lot, or even most gay men have in some degree. (I have no words for this “gayness” - it’s not female like but it is… definitely a thing).

This isn’t about the you-him relationship because the language is third person. This is about the you-reader or if I’m speaking to you the you-me relationship.

It’s not the worst thing ever™️ but it matters to me to say why I don’t think it’s a good idea to make any exception - especially because it influences the gay man world to continue to “other” those who are deemed “soft and gentle” - or even “ethereal” sometimes - and for those gay men to continue to believe they are “better off” changing themselves to look like women."

https://x.com/duncanhenry78/status/2047291489294639527?s=61&t=U9XrcF693-JpMxeIueYG7g

You appear to miss the fact that I am not talking about Rowling in that post, I am clearly talking about myself.

Yes he seems to have completely reinvented the orthodoxy of reproductive biology all by his little lonesome!

I am now wondering what colour the sky is in his universe.

I didn't say they were equally valued. I said one was valued over the other, but that does not mean one is unvalued.

There is no embellishment or untruth here.

I took oestrogen. My body did the rest.

I later had a vaginoplasty and labiaplasty, however those are not observable (in the day-to-day life sense).

I would have thought that JK Rowling would probably say that her friend was now a trans woman with a sexual preference for men, which would be fine by me. To be honest, I don’t think it is inconsistent to say that there are two sexes (which I and JK believe) AND to accept that the mental picture of a gay person is a male presenting person with another male presenting person, so it’s hard for many people to understand immediately that a gay trans woman is partnered with a man and that the language might just be difficult even if the concepts are not. I think it is actually easier when the language is homosexual trans woman, because the language makes it clear that same sex attraction is what is relevant, but it is a bit unwieldy.

I also don’t think that JK is really denying that her friend is underneath still a gay man when she says “was”, because the “was” relates to her first understanding of this person in the past. She expressly says that she is effectively being kind to this person, it’s not a misprepresentation of reality to anyone else or between them and neither of them believe that a sex change has happened, so she doesn’t really need to say to them effectively “but you’re a man, you do know that, right” all the time.

I don’t really care if JK refers to her friend as “she” out of kindness - she clearly believes that this person does not have a right to female only spaces. And it is possible to maintain that sex is important and pronouns are just total guff about what you want to be called that make no difference to whether you get access to the women’s refuge. (Yes, I have read pronouns are rohypnol, but the argument only works if you actually ascribe belief to the pronouns and believe that they are related to sex status, rather than just a name people want to be called).

Vaginoplasty and labiaplasty are quite natural…🤔

I never said it was.

In all fairness, I have no idea of just what would have happened in an uninterrupted puberty vs the one I experienced, but comparing myself to my younger (and much taller, larger and older looking) brother:

He has wide shoulders and narrow hips, I do not. My waist-to-hip ratio is .65 currently. His...is not (he follows the male-typical barrel torso shape so popular in our family). I have a pelvic tilt, he does not. My rib cage is differently shaped and much smaller, he has a v-shaped upper back. My arms, hands, legs and feet are differently shaped. He has a full greying beard and moustache, I never grew one. He is a hairy sasquatch of a man, and yet he is so so bald. I have never had much body hair and my hairline lost some baby hairs, but hasn't moved. My feet are 5 whole sizes smaller. He has a pyramid of an adam's apple while my face and neck never androgenised. He sounds like our dad, I sound like our mum...

There's no orthodoxy here. The universe will never identify me as a man.

Oh yes… what I’m confused about is, that poster said he transitioned in the 80s, but puberty blockers were not used until the 90s, and hormones were not prescribed to children until even later. But the ‘female puberty” was completely natural. Honest bruv.

“I pass.”

Just because you are not as tall as your brother that doesn’t make you a woman. You were born XY male. That means you are an adult male. You seem to think that wanting something badly enough can magic it into existence. That’s not how reality works.

I'm not gay or lesbian. (But then, according to your own avowed beliefs, neither are you 😜)

It would be surprising if a dynamic based on gender stereotypes/roles that was pervasive in the 80s/90s didn't have a formative influence on how anyone who was alive in the 80s/90s feels about gender now. The testimony from the original blog post (by a gay man) seems to indicate that its influence is still being felt

No. I'm not, really. By the time I thought about replacing the initial question to ask whether you had experience within gay and lesbian cultures, I'd already pressed 'send.' 🤷‍♀️

I and others have tried to identify a cause of why I felt like I did. It is possible the wider culture had a part, but I felt a very strong aversion to aging in a male body even before I had a word for it. It was more than visceral, it was repulsion. I don't believe gender stereotypes or roles had any part in that. I also don't wish to overlay the conditions of my life on anyone else who may have transitioned from the gay community.

Middle-class white 80s was a good time to transition, culturally, in my experience. So much about gender was in flux. But, my schooling was interrupted several times and I wasn't able to complete my secondary education. I was somewhat thankful that future trans youth had managed to find some success in that, and even uni...until they apparently hadn't.

Gender stereotypes have changed and not changed since the 80s. I haven't have a good window into the gay and lesbian communities to observe changes there since the early 90s. How I've reacted to stereotypes and expectations of stereotypes have also changed since the 80s and 90s. Some of that is because I'm no longer young. Some, because I've moved countries a few times. Others because the boundaries of what is perceived acceptable of men and women have shifted.

I think the OP/blog post gay man was working backwards into his community from gender critical belief first principals. I'm not sure if any of the 'soft' men he feels are falling off the periphery of his culture actually transition. I can't see the disappearance of the well established sub-communities where they were valued and celebrated within the gay culture. The boys and men who are attracted to men and go on to transition have not abandoned the gay community and they have not been failed by the community. They were there because it was a relatively safe space to continue life.

I'm not sure if any of the 'soft' men he feels are falling off the periphery of his culture actually transition.

But we all know that there are different 'types' of transitioners. And children who would have otherwise grown up to be gay seem to be recognised as a large chunk of these?

But we all know that there are different 'types' of transitioners.

'Types.' Yes. Observably, there are groupings. I don't know if I believe the observability is in itself significant. Some studies and theories would say yes, some no. Like everyone else, I have personal feelings and prejudices about what makes sense to me and what does not.

And children who would have otherwise grown up to be gay seem to be recognised as a large chunk of these?

Around the gay community at the time, in the 80s? I never saw more than 3-4 trans women together in the same place in a relatively large city. There were 100s more feminine men. I suspect the same is true today, though the numbers of trans women may be larger within the gay community? I don't know.

There are likely children who follow a path to transition and life beyond, who may have otherwise grown up to be gay or lesbian. The studies done during my childhood and adolescence would suggest most desisted and found a life in the gay or lesbian community. I may have been identified as such, as I was lost to followup. The tiny minority of detransitioners also say they would be better off not transitioning. I cannot say what percentage of adults today would or would not have desisted and grown up to be gay or lesbian. In addition to personal agency, there are far too many variables to consider.

'Gay' is very much subsumed into and acceptable within mainstream culture today. It makes it difficult to delineate pathways and motivations, if such a thing even matters in the 'grand scheme of life.' The gay ghettos of my youth mattered, because they were a refuge in a cruel world. Now people can just log onto the internet.