“The idea that men would pretend to be LGBT to get what they want is patently ridicul-“

[NotBadConsidering]

Oh. Maybe they would.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c937wldkkw8o

Just watched this on the BBC. Remarkable report.

If Pakistani men are prepared to put aside their high levels of societal homophobia, including go to Pride and gay clubs, to take advantage of people’s genuine intentions, it doesn’t seem much of a stretch to me that men in prisons or other scenarios might be willing to identify as women for a little bit and see where it gets them.

But we always knew that.

It was certainly an eye opener how brazen these men were.

That is deeply concerning that they are doing it. But you are quite right about the significance of the lengths people will go to.

This is an open joke in Jamaica. I was there recently and I was chatting to a lovely group of middle class women on the beach with their DC and they were having a right laugh about how tempted they were to "pretend to be lesbian" to get a higher income for "sitting home on their backside" than they did working as nurses/teachers etc in Jamaica. They were joking and obviously very hard working great women but it is an international joke.

This is the issue with allowing subjective criteria for benefiting from a protected characteristic. People can pretend. It’s why the protections for religion/belief are weaker than for say, disability or sex/maternity (or at least, as the system originally intended).

A lot of “do-gooders” are idealistic to the point of naïveté, sadly.

Seems an obvious question to ask but, I wonder how many of those protestors trying to shout down speakers are LWS events are actually just there to get some 'no really I am LGBT+' photos?

Absolutely. Men were willing to enter the seminary and train to be bloody priests in order to access the vulnerable targets of their desires; saying that they're gay is nothing in comparison.

Talk about talking one for the team 🫤

I found this completely unsurprising. There's this weird idea in so-called progressive circles that migrants and asylum seekers represent some kind of separate class of people who would never lie. But of course they lie. Why wouldn't they? There is evidence that some also lie about religion (claiming persecution because they're Christian) or age (claiming to be under 18).

I think WearyLeader makes a reasonable point about subjective criteria - though I don't know how you'd stop it. Could you reasonably say that homosexual persecution is no longer an acceptable ground for claiming asylum?

The only unexpected thing about this is that the investigation was carried out by the BBC, of all people.

Young men used enter the seminaries to get a good , free education to degree level. Then they'd suddenly realise they don't have a calling to the priesthood after all.
Other young lads who were confused or guilty about their sexual orientation would join the clergy hoping to be ' cured' alas.

Not a useful contribution to the discussion, merely an anecdote, but I seem to remember that a couple of decades ago, one of the Eastern European countries would challenge migrants' sexuality claims by making them watch images of semi-clad men and women to see which provoked tumescence, but the practice was ruled unlawful by the ECHR.

https://www.zdfheute.de/politik/deutschland/liebich-festnahme-tschechien-rechtsextremistin-100.html browser will translate - much open speculation about this person's motives.

I don’t think there’s any speculation about his motives at all. He’s pretty open about how he’s playing the system, isn’t he? He has been discussed here. As have all the men with rapid prison onset gender dysphoria. And all the people who claim that men won’t exploit loopholes.

I think the speculation is more about whether he just did it to be provocative/ offensive, quite simply because he could, not even to get into a women's prison.

Or the Spanish soldiers in Ceuta gaming the law on gender in the hope of gaining better benefits such as pensions. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/05/spanish-soldiers-change-gender-benefits-for-women/

Or the Australian police officers claiming to be NBs in order to get a greater clothing allowance.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/16/victoria-police-officers-interviewed-over-non-binary-claims-in-alleged-clothing-allowance

In my 20's I was definitely the sort of person that thought this way, but as I've got older and wiser, I realised that (if I had to put a number on it) about 5% of people are always on their best behaviour, 5% of people are awful and the rest kind of muddle along sometimes doing the right thing and sometimes doing wrong... and this doesn't change depending on culture, race etc. (although I think there are likely to be some sex differences...). Human nature is to try and gain an advantage for yourself and/or nearest and dearest and if the chance of not getting caught is very low then 95% of people will do it!

It's a kind of positive racism to assume that people from other countries can't do anything wrong! They are human, with human behaviours, just like the rest of us.

(Edited for spelling)

@RoyalCorgi "I found this completely unsurprising. There's this weird idea in so-called progressive circles that migrants and asylum seekers represent some kind of separate class of people who would never lie."

I know, I see it on here all the time. There seems to be a very strange notion that all male asylum seekers are somehow much "finer" people than anyone else. Whilst the amount of rapes and sexual assaults reported in the news seems to suggest quite the opposite. And of course a fair proportion of them are going to lie through their teeth about sexual orientation, religion, their age or the political beliefs that allegedly led them to flee their own countries. And there's little to no chance for the authorities to do a damn thing about it.

The vice-chair of LGBT Conservatives has been on X saying exactly this, that asylum lawyers tell their clients to join LGBT associations as membership will help their applications.

If a sitcom featured a plot about the Tories being so pro-gay that straight Eritreans were joining the party to avoid being deported, most voters would think it was absurd, but that's how the asylum system works.

It’s sacred caste again.

Always a bad idea.

Never ever generalise about people - in either direction!

Well of course this is happening. People frequently exploit loopholes and game the system. I'm surprised that it is a surprise. Not sure what ethical way it could be proven/disproven though. I hope it isn't the actual gay persecuted people who lose out at a result.

This is an old story and not sure why it is suddenly being highlighted or maybe just points out that the BBC isn't the pinnicle reporting in the UK.

And credible LGB groups have reported that there should be an investigation.

But as usually it is reported to whip up all types of phobia.

The problem is the same one that causes all of these issues.

The UK can not run any service of provision properly.

And there is always some entrepreneur who will make money out of the inept UK Government services.

And no it isn't just men.

And what is worse is there are just as many news stories, which somehow dont make it into the headlines, or FWR of women who are lesbians and in real danger in their country of origin who are treated really badly by UK civil servants, humiliated, and worse sometimes return to a place of danger.

Doesn't anyone wonder why we are fed these hysterical stories?

It is to stop you looking at the problem, that more and more it is obvious that we dont have systems that work.

Everywhere in the world has the same number of chavvy, dodgy scammers, it's not exclusive to the UK. I have no idea how they can support genuine LGB people and stop the scammers slipping through.

spanish you're nicer than me 😁. I reckon 20% of people are awful. But I do live somewhere horrible.

This is an old story - this has been known about by the Home Office for a long time and with the backdrop of the wider issues and serious problems with immigration, it seems very relevant today. This investigation seems like a new development in a long running story - no reason to dismiss it.

But as usually it is reported to whip up all types of phobia.
Doesn't anyone wonder why we are fed these hysterical stories?

What sort of ‘phobia’ is it whipping up, why are you accusing the BBC of doing that when they are the least likely to be coming up with ‘anti immigrant’ stories?

And why do you think we are being ‘fed these stories’?

One aspect that I find very concerning is that Jess Phillips said she has known about this for years, having had direct testimony from a constituent.

So why has she done precisely nothing about it? Anything to do with the racial and religious make up of her constituents? In order to cling onto power, Jess (and clearly other ministers) is acting against the interests of the country.