Saw a man in the ladies changing room

[OThatsTornIt]

Encountered my first man in the ladies changing room at a gym I was a guest at

bearded and wearing an oodie style towel. Him, not me

It was really weird. I’m in my fifties and the world bamboozles me

I am sorry that you experienced this. Did you complain to management?

I dread the day this inevitably happens to me. How do you feel OP? Did you complain?

That would have been a direct challenge from me. We must not put up with this.

I would complain and make sure I paid no (more?) money to them e.g. if they have lunch facilities explain why I wouldnt be using them.

I am dreading that moment. I'm not sure what's the right approach, I believe there's some advice on the Sex Matters website.
How do you feel?

Some gyms chains (Virgin Active and Pure quite recently) have amended their rules so that people should use the changing room that corresponds to their biological sex. With, I believe, third spaces made available. The ones run by that Dragon's Den bloke (Ballatyne's?) have always done this. If it was one of them definitely bring it to the attention of the staff, escalate if necessary. If it was anywhere else I would go absolutely batshit complain anyway.

I really hope you can complain OP.

If the gym don’t have a policy that allows this then they definitely need to know they have a predatory man using their facilities and if their policy allows it, they need to understand that they are literally facilitating crimes of voyeurism and maybe flashing .

Especially with flashing, you have to prove intent. In the olden days it was much easier to prove intent as you could just point to the fact that a man was where he shouldn’t be ie. around undressed women. Nowadays, how do you prove any crime has happened if he’s allowed to be there stripping off or just watching?

I feel really weird, it was surreal

It was in a university gym. I had a guest pass as did my adult daughter and as we were leaving after being to the loo we saw him coming from the direction of the pool

it all happened in a flurry, and we just carried on out

I’d always thought I’d call it out and complain, but didn’t, which doesn’t make me feel good

Hello, there is lots of info and good advice that might be helpful in your case here:
Know your rights – changing rooms and toilets - Sex Matters
please keep us posted. xx

Fight, flight or freeze - most of us freeze when it comes to males invading boundaries.

I’m really sorry you experienced this; please do consider reporting it.

There are so many cases of voyerism in swimming pools and gyms. And it’s well documented that voyerism leads to worse crimes.

Granted he may not have done anything wrong but it’s the boundary that is being tested. Either he or others can push it further.

A beard? Bloody hell was he not even attempting to look like a woman? I think I probably would have complained and said there is a bearded man in the changing room, I don't think he is trans he just looks like a normal man.
But would depend in what kind of a rush I was in.

A very small number of transmen (biological women who feel they have a masculine gender identity) take so much testosterone that they will grow a beard and build up extra muscle (also damaging their bodies irreperably and making serious future health issues much more likely). Most don't go to this extreme and just look like butch-presenting women, but especially in a university context it is quite possible that one such might be deliberately setting out to cause anxiety for women who want a single sex changing room to create a "gotcha" moment (ie you complain about beardybloke but that's actually a female) so now there's nothing for it but to say that anyone of any sex or gender can use the ladies if they want to because there's no enforceable boundary.

Women have the right to a single-sex environment when they are vulnerable. If a woman has gone to such extreme lenths as to grow a beard to disguise the fact that she is a woman then that action is a conscious choice to become "other", so they should use a single-user unisex cubicle.

Are we sure this wasn't a TIF? They could have just been following the single sex spaces guidance and have every right to be there.

I know two TIFs and I had no idea they were TIFs until they told me, I just thought they were ordinary blokes

I know two TIFs and I had no idea they were TIFs until they told me, I just thought they were ordinary blokes

Is it not reasonable to think that because they look like blokes they should be treated as such? I suspect we need to have a court case about this.

Would these TIFs have passed in the Gents? if so, what was stopping them using the Gents? Or the increasing number of unisex toilets available now.

I don't remember now but I think that the Supreme Court judgement did address this issue.

The SC judgment said that trans identified women could be barred from single sex spaces if their appearance would cause alarm but it doesn't mean they can use male single sex provisions.

If a service provider wanted to bar a woman from female facilities there would have to be an alternative unisex facility.

but it doesn't mean they can use male single sex provisions.

I think we have established on various threads that although employers and service providers have obligations around providing single sex facilities, that there aren't any actual laws banning individuals from using the opposite sex facilities.

In the past it wasn't an issue - men and women knew which ones they were meant to go to. There is a scene in the film Cabaret where a cross dressing man goes into the Gents - and causes people to look down and see, yes, he has the correct equipment.

Ok then. An employer or service provider should not allow a trans identified female to use male single sex facilities.

It is the employer or service provider that is at risk of legal action if they allow this.

Gross, I would not have liked that.
I had my first experience of mixed sex loos in London last week.
We were at the Tate and what used to be ( presumably) distinct Ladies and Mens loos are now fully enclosed mixed cubicles in a waiting area behind a closed door.

It was vile to have to queue up inside the room with Men taking their sweet time in the cubicles, 8 Women came and went in the time ONE Man was in a cubicle stinking the whole place out.
DH went into the other set thinking it might be just urinals but was met with half a dozen Women waiting inside, he stood with the main door open until the Women had gone. Every Woman who saw him at the door automatically went to the other set.
The toilets were also on different floors to the cafes, a Woman obviously didn’t come up with that idea 🙄

Sounds vile. Complain to them. They'll probably do sweet fa but they definitely won't if people don't complain.

Please don't feel like that. It's the 'I can't be seeing that' moment, followed by the 'What'll happen to ME if I complain because he's bigger than me.' Complain now, but if it was a university gym don't expect it to get you anywhere. And when your daughter comes home for the summer, sign her up for a class in the nastiest form of self defence you can find. My Dad had me taught krav maga because he said he'd rather pay for a good lawyer than a good undertaker. That was more than 40 years ago, and it's come in useful a surprising number of times because when you know you can hit back your body language is different.

Women don't like them, most men don't like them, yet the world has been reorganised to pander to a vocal, stroppy, sometimes violent minority.