US anti abortion activism influencing Gen Z - I don't think this was substantially change abortion laws-hopefully? (Article)

[Carla786]

I'm Gen Z myself and this is worrying. I think the poll is a bit vague though. 'All or most cases ' - did that mean up to 9 months in all cases? Or up to 6 months with exceptions for severe conditions, as it has been for years?

I strongly doubt that the UK will end up restricting abortion more than most other European countries, becoming like one of the number of US states (Alabama for one) which ban abortion even in the case of rape seems very unlikely.
Could it be possible that in future the limit gets shifted to below 24 weeks, which is unusually high compared to most other European countries? Maybe. There are valid reasons to keep it at 24 though : some conditions may not show until then, some pregnancies may not be realised even.

I do think the push to legalise abortion up to birth was wrong and is backfiring. Most people in the UK want women to be able to choose up to the 24 week limit, I think, but I don't think most people support abortion beyond that, especially in the very late months when the foetus is closely developed into a baby and potentially viable- unless there is a very serious condition that risks the life and health of baby and/or mother. That doesn't mean most people want women to be aggressively investigated, I think it's more than in principle it should not be legally enshrined that abortion at 8 months or any time beyond 24 weeks is the same as what our law since 1967 allowed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2dl5j0w23o

I think it should be remembered that Roe fell in the US largely due to the efforts of pro life supporters, coupled with the fact that they are bound by the Constitution, which arguably probably did not intend to allow the right to privacy to include abortion. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed: it just means that legally, Roe was vulnerable.
In the states with the most restrictive laws, like Alabama and Iowa, the general population tend NOT to want very strict laws. The people driving their passing tend to be a minority of very ideologically pro-life Republicans- factors playing in include the fact that people tend to be lazy about voting in primaries and thus very motivated pro lifers who DO vote can make it a wedge issue and have a disproportionate say.

And at least (though this is very imperfect solution for poor women, women living with DV etc), the state system means abortion can be accessed in blue states and some red states.

So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that drawing parallels with America to suggest our abortion laws could fall too is possibly questionable. The reason Roe fell isn't that comparable to our laws, and the general public in America, even in the strictest states, are not radically opposed to abortion generally.

The poll says 46% of 16 to 34-year-old males believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, compared to 71% among the general population.
So 46% is nearly half, they shouldn't doom-monger too much. I would imagine some will moderate their views a bit if they are currently 16 or 17 and spending a lot of time online.
As I said, 'all or most cases' is also quite vague. Some of these may support abortion for any reason up to say, 12 weeks (the limit in some Euro countries)- that's very different from someone who thinks even rape victims shouldn't be allowed an abortion, a la Rees-Mogg, or someone who thinks the 24 week limit is fine but not beyond that etc

They haven’t legalised abortion up to birth. They have decriminalised it to stop the needless prosecutions of women.

The right to an abortion in the UK is more fragile than it feels. abortion is still technically a criminal offence, but exceptions are provided if certain conditions are met, mainly that continuing the pregnancy would pose a risk to the woman’s physical or mental health. In reality this is often straightforward, but if policies or attitudes shifted, my understanding is that access could tighten without changing the law itself.

Ipsos says 72% of Gen Z women support abortion in all or most cases. If this continues, it would probably be hard for the government to ban, especially as support remains high among older generations and we have an aging population

I agree we must be vigilant though.

Sorry, could you elaborate a bit more on how you think access could tighten without a law change, if policies and attitudes shifted? I don't think attitudes overall will shift.

For example, doctors have to be satisfied that the legal grounds are met, such as a risk to a woman’s mental or physical health. If the definition of “risk” is interpreted more tightly, the threshold effectively rises.

In practice, that means clinicians apply the criteria more narrowly, so fewer abortions are approved, even though the law itself hasn’t changed.

I’m definitely not an expert in this though

Personally I wish these men would put their energies into advocating for financial support for families, support for disabled children and adults, support for adoption services and preventing rape and DV. Obviously women could and should still have the choice to abort even if those things were good, but those factors are behind a large amount of abortions : we know obviously plenty of women may want another child but can't support one.

Gloria Steinem notes that being pro choice more broadly should be about reproductive freedom : the freedom to not be sterilised against your will or forced to abort, and the right to be supported if you do want to keep a baby all come into this. However, SM arguments against all/most abortion that probably are driving some of this are rarely that nuanced. ...

I see...that is worrying. So eg. 'mental health risk' could be narrowed to mean very little short of potential suicide? I will check- that is worrying if a possibility.

Yes, absolutely.

A significant portion of the population will never stop pushing to restrict, or even remove, access to abortion.

That’s exactly why a key priority should be to fully legalise it and clearly enshrine the right to abortion in law.

Personally feel that the U.S climate on the 'pro choice side' is also negatively effecting the climate here, and destabilising what has long been settled.

So, if 'they' go one way, the answer is go to the other extreme?

This is what Trump does. By being provocative and extreme he merely serves to inflame the opposition - who then push back even more forcefully.

I agree.

I wonder if the falling birth rate is a contributory factor (as well as bog standard misogyny) as well? Until I was pregnant myself and came into contact with other pregnant women I had no real idea of the rate of miscarriage, had no clue about conditions that would mean a newborn would not live long after birth, and certainly didn’t appreciate the risk of maternal mortality. I had never met a woman who had experienced the loss of a baby and still had to go through labour. I’d never been anti-abortion but I think I came out of pregnancy even more pro-choice. But if you’re in a generation where you don’t know many pregnant women and have no idea of the reasons why abortions may be necessary maybe it’s easier to get swept up by some of this anti-abortion rhetoric.

Not sure that is what Battues is suggesting and is not advocating “extreme” measures by any means but perhaps they will clarify. By the way Batties is giving an excellent explanation of the current position and the need for decriminalisation.

A safe termination is always less risky than continuing a pregnancy so abortion up to birth can always be justified.

I’m not sure what you mean when you describe my comment as ‘extreme’?

It may well be that my algorithms don’t align to this, but I’ve not really seen any interest in the uk re abortion and making it more difficult. Is this actually happening?

There's a big difference between a 6 week old foetus, a 24 week old one , and then a third trimester that's close to a baby and might well be able to survive outside the womb.
Mostly women who get late abortions get them due to severe conditions that mean baby will not live long after birth. And most have them early on.

My point is that termination is always legal whatever the stage of gestation because a termination is safer than continuing the pregnancy.

Is that really true for the third trimester?

Of course. There are still complications that can occur in the third trimester which can be fatal, and labour or course has its own risks.

Completely agree with this. Encouraging protections of woman's access to abortion in the face of extremists who wish to ban or restrict it isn't extreme and it's disingenuous for someone to imply it is.