So much disinformation and general bollocks! Frustration with responses to the IOC announcement

[auserna]

Predictably, so much bullshit being spouted following this (very well handled, I thought) announcement from the IOC.

Prof Alun Williams (Professor of Sport and Exercise Genomics, Manchester Metropolitan University) talks about people being "coerced" into taking the genetic test. It's no more a coercion than the process of applying for a passport if you want to travel abroad; there's no force or intimidation implemented by the IOC.

He says that there is no need to test trans people as you can just ask them, or their family and friends, what their sex is. Yeah, because trans people are well known for being straightforward and honest about their "biological" sex and for not putting pressure on their friends and family to affirm their delusions.

He says, “What’s certainly true is that genetic testing like this was tried and then abandoned in the 1990s because of all the inherent problems with validity, practicality and ethics." Because obviously genetic testing hasn't advanced at all since the 1990s.

Meanwhile interACT (an advocacy organisation for young people who have DSDs) claims that, "Doctors and scientists agree that biological sex characteristics exist on a spectrum," (what, all of them? Really?) and that, "Experts [who remained nameless] have spoken out about how “sex testing” is unscientific."

They also claim that, "The policy makes a few rare exceptions for some intersex athletes with specific variations (using the stigmatizing term “DSD”*), but restricts many more intersex athletes from competition," when the actual wording from the IOC policy says, "XY-DSD athletes with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) (defined in Schedule 1) and other rare XY DSDs that do not benefit from the anabolic and/or performance-enhancing effects of testosterone should, on that basis, be included in the Female Category," thus including any necessary intersex conditions and demonstrating that this has clearly been thought through carefully.

Also on their site are testimonials showing how a poor intersex child was no longer allowed to swim for their team because they wore a different type of costume - until it's revealed that the child in question is also trans which is entirely different to having a DSD.

*The term "DSD" is only "stigmatizing" is you don't believe their are male and female DSDs and think people with these conditions live in a speshul in-between world (as, unfortunately, plenty of people with these conditions seem to if they've been captured by this ideology). If you haven't bought into this bullshit then DSD - Disorder of Sexual Development - simply describes the condition (or rather the range of conditions).

"How can sex be binary if some people have XXY chromosomes?" they cry, glowing smugly with their own cleverness, totally ignoring the fact that human beings are organic and sometimes there are mutations/anomalies.

Not to mention the continued taunts of, "Oh, you clearly don't understand biology!" if you don't happen to believe that men can magically become women. It's just exhausting.

Another thing is people describing the genetic testing as being intrusive or invasive when it's a simple cheek swab.

There was nothing wrong with the sex testing it the 90's. There was a concerted campaign to remove it but it was done so in opposition to the female athletes and I'm pretty sure they never won the scientific argument either. It was all vague 'inclusion' and not wanting to 'other', I never saw a convincing hard science reason. And we ended up with 3 males on the podium of the Women's 800m in 2016. In 2024 during the boxing scandel, Thomas Bach said we don't want to go back to the days of sex testing and I thought, why not? We've seen the consequences of abandoning testing and they are catestrophic for fair women's sports. Never again.

He clearly just identifies as a professor...

One of my relatives is a former Olympian. She competed in the 90s and early 2000s in judo, then as now you undergo drug testing which if you're not picked for a blood test, involves having to urinate into a cup in front of an official. They have to see the pee coming out of you. This has to be done as any point it is requested. Other female Olympians have also talked about this. It can be done at any point, not just during the competition, and with no notice. The only exemption is if you are in the medal ceremony as I recall. If you don't need a wee then you just have to wait until you do. If the sample is too diluted then you have to wait and do another one.

That's just accepted by all who compete at the Olympics and has been for decades. But a one off cheek swab is invasive? Absolutely bollocks. Anything to deny that women are being disadvantaged

Interesting that I haven't come across any reference to that recently. By which I don't mean that I am questioning its accuracy, but that there's clearly a reason why TRAs aren't making a fuss about this style of testing which is much more intrusive than a cheek swab.

*In para 8 "their" should read "there".

"He says, “What’s certainly true is that genetic testing like this was tried and then abandoned in the 1990s because of all the inherent problems with validity, practicality and ethics." Because obviously genetic testing hasn't advanced at all since the 1990s."

Really, because as noted in thread above female athletes were fine with it, didn't they vote by about 89% to keep it and then were promptly ignored by those in charge because it wasn't the answer they wanted.

Another midwit academic, how do these people get to be Professors.

I think Sharron Davies has talked about it.
The current UK Anti Doping Agency info certainly indicates the process is the same.
https://www.ukad.org.uk/introduction-testing

Cheek swabs/DNA testing used to be quite expensive and was what had replaced the . chromosome tests used prior to that.
It's vastly cheaper now and is a one off test. Prof Williams is talking rubbish when he says it was complex and invasive for athletes. It was and still is a one off test and 94% of female athletes reported that they did not find it invasive. I suspect the issues came from athletes with DSDs who were being exploited by the sporting bodies of their countries so they could win medals by entering the women's category or having to undergo surgery in order to compete in the women's.

As mentioned my cousin was a Judoka and competed in 1996 so was DNA tested when it was mandatory for all competitions in the Atalanta Games. This was the first games that Judoka Edinanci Silva competed at, Silva has a DSD and was allowed to compete after surgery and was competing for many years in the women's half heavyweight. Silva is, I think, now retired thankfully. look up images of Silva which are widely available and you wonder how the rest of the women in the same category felt.

Among the most egregious and widespread examples of misinformation are references to blanket bans, e.g. statements that all trans women are to be banned from participating in the Olympics, that all trans athletes are banned from the women's category, and similar statements about athletes with DSDs. None of this is true, but most news reports seem to include at least one of these blatant lies, e.g.:

Olympics BAN transgender athletes from ALL women's sports - Daily Mail headline

The IOC’s new guidelines, announced on Friday, mandate genetic sex tests for all athletes competing in its women’s categories, as well as blanket bans of people who identify as transgender, intersex or with sex differences. - Guardian article

Olympics announces transgender ban in all women’s sport Exclusive: Ruling will also prohibit women with differences in sexual development - Telegraph headline

Transgender women athletes banned from Olympics by new IOC policy on female eligibility - CBS headline

Transgender athletes barred from female category events - Reuters headline

And many more

I am concerned about athletes who may discover for the first time something life-shattering about themselves. Many Olympic athletes come from countries where testing to identify DSD/Intersex conditions at young ages is not available. It's also true that where these resources don't exist, it's "easier" to register a birth of ambiguous sex as female as there are cultural stigmas about being male without visible male genitalia.

It would be hideous for a young athlete to discover they are living with a condition which means they are infertile, means their whole identity as a person isn't as they understood it and lose their sport (and the thing which may be bringing money to their family and community) without any support from the Athletics Federations or IOC. Also, many of these countries don't have mechanisms for changing legal sex. So a woman, who has spent her life being classified as female, becomes publically known to be male, but is unable to change sex markers due to lack of legal recourse. So will there be support for these people who become trapped in a legal limbo?

This likely isn't what happens. Puberty reveals the truth, there is no avoiding it if they didn't know sooner (many, like Semenya preferred the rough and tumble of typical boys activities and as such always hung out with the boys). They are then actively sought out by coaches who know they would be at an advantage in the female category. You could argue they are taken advantage of. This only started after sex testing was dropped. Re-introducing it will prevent this happening.

It is a concern and needs to be handled supportively and sensitivily. But that sensitivity and consideration for the individual is not enough to outweigh providing a fair opportunity for competition to all the other female athletes across the sport.

Also - it is clear some countries and sports federations have cynically exploited athletes with DSDs to win medals, scouting for them, promoting them and creating an atmosphere of opacity to further this bad sportsmanship (on behalf of the federations) which also has serious potential consequences for the athletes involved (not receiving counselling, appropriate information and medical treatment if necessary, or being forced into taking hormone suppressants inappropriately to continue competing, prioritising their athletic prowess and medal chances over their health.
Fair sex testing and certification will remove the incentive for this exploitation of athletes with DSDs and allow diagnosis and support at an earlier time, not when you are on the world stage being accused of cheating.

I'm surprised how vocal people who want to remove women's rights are. It doesn't look good does it. Have they no shame?

No. Because women are just "not-men" to them and the feelings of full humans aka men are considered far more important.

The IOC’s new guidelines, announced on Friday, mandate genetic sex tests for all athletes competing in its women’s categories, as well as blanket bans of people who identify as transgender, intersex or with sex differences. - Guardian article

The Guardian should know better than this (I'm aware of its bias in these matters, but that's no excuse for factual inaccuracy), as should Reuters. Plus you don't "identify" as intersex any more than you identify as having diabetes. It's a medical condition, not a feeling. Bloody infuriating people keep perpetuating this nonsense that intersex and trans are in the same category.

Thats what I can't get my head around either. Why so many people want to destroy womens sports.

It is a concern, and there should be counselling available for such eventualities. However my understanding is that most DSDs that aren't obvious at birth will become obvious at puberty (or lack thereof). And there's never really a good time to find out you're infertile.

People do discover they have conditions they weren't aware of in these sorts of circumstances - it's just the nature of it.

All of that is a correct concern - but is it really the IOC's concern? There are country level organisations who will have been dealing with those athletes for years, on the path to the olympics, that is a much better place to be making such discoveries. Many athletes will have been in training programmes as a child and during their transition to adulthood. For many of those where conceptually a swap might reveal something different to the public image of that athlete, then there will be coaches / admin / parents / other competitors / the athlete who will have known from early on...

The reality is that most men who compete at the olympics pretending to be women are reasonably obvious visually - there is also often a statistical anomaly in their performance... The IOC is rightly saying that they need to eradicate this unfairness at their level - but the true responsibility must surely lie much earlier in the process, and that will be at a point where it will be in the nuturing environment of parents and known coaches etc. e.g. to get onto a national or olympic training programme - cheek swap - deal with any issues then... it could even become part of a standard 'passport' to any competitive sport... doing so would totally remove any concerns at IOC level and reduce public exposure - it would have the benefit of making other levels of sport much fairer as well...

I guess for the same reason they don't want women to have single-sex spaces whether that be a changing room or a social group; to know their gynaecologist is female; to access women's positions and awards; to decide that they're not attracted to anyone with a penis, etc., etc. I find it a very strange phenomenon, even more so when it's being pushed by women.

So a woman, who has spent her life being classified as female, becomes publically known to be male, but is unable to change sex markers due to lack of legal recourse.

Straw man. This athlete doesn't become publically known as anything, they can simply retire from competitive sport (which people do for lots of reasons, including injuries and other medical conditions). The results are private and confidential.

Frankly I would want to know as soon as possible if I had a genetic condition that would preclude me competing in the female category.

Ideally such a person is tested early on, well before their sport becomes the thing that "brings money to their community", which concept I find rather reductive and assumptive about other countries.

Questions were first raised publicly about Caster aged 19.
There must have been Questions before that privately

I have concerns too, as I don't think all boys with DSDs develop recognisable male genitalia at puberty - some do, but some don't, and 'does not have male genitals=must be a woman' is probably seen as a reasonable conclusion by people without access to medical expertise.

Obviously, by the time these children are swept up into a training machine, that medical expertise is available, but is supressed to keep the gravy train running.

The IOC is aware of this and said this in their announcement of the testing policy:
“Every athlete must be treated with dignity and respect, and athletes will need to be screened only once in their lifetime. There must be clear education around the process and counselling available, alongside expert medical advice.”

They know at puberty when they don't have periods.

Polling in the UK and USA consistently tops 70% approval from excluding males from the female category in sports. The usual suspects spouting nonsense are shouting into the void.

As a previous poster said, with regard to the issues arising from poor healthcare in some countries, this is not and should not be the concern of the IOC and elite international sport.

There is nothing to stop those who are concerned campaigning and fundraising for better worldwide DSD related care. I suspect they’d be much more successful in their campaigns if they don’t limit their target audience to elite sports organisations.

This is very clear from Ross Tucker.

His video about pushing back on the weak arguments that we have seen for years but which have cycled around so much over the past few days.

https://x.com/scienceofsport/status/2038606531386634714?s=46

’The sky is falling as women are harmed - so say various Human Rights groups & people in response to the IOC's Policy to protect women's sport. Their views are misguided, uninformed & false. In this 15 min video, I explain what they get wrong & ignore:’