Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tribunal discussion thread supporting FayeRC in case against NHS England starting 16/03/26

1000 replies

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/03/2026 23:58

Thanks for joining in this discussion in support of @FayeRC and the case against NHSE.

This is a private tribunal case, so there will be no live viewing, however TT will be covering and I'll be doing my best to cover it here, however my Monday has become very busy, so any support from PPs is welcomed!

Groundskeeping rules, let's all remain respectful in our discussions. I'm sure TT will cover the Judges expectations for coverage in the morning. This should be a lot smoother as this tribunal isn't open for public viewing and so a lot less scope for error, however discussion should be about what is accurately being reported on and not misrepresented.

FayeRC is a pseudonym and so I ask that if anybody recognises FayeRC throughout the tribunal we respect the anonymity requested.

There will also be current, and frequent gardening requests on the crowd justice page, please search Faye Russell-Caldicott crowd justice if you can support. We have less than 17 days to help raise another £40,000.

"I have issued an employment tribunal complaint against NHS England for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women), religion (Islam), philosophical belief (gender critical) and disability (PTSD) for having a policy in place which effectively renders the supposed single-sex toilet, changing room and showering facilities as mixed-sex.
According to NHSE’s trans staff policy, transwomen (born males) can use female facilities in addition to male and gender neutral facilities. Which means that NHSE expects women to share female facilities with biological males. If a woman is not happy with that, she is directed to use the gender neutral toilets, and transwomen (males) can continue using the female facilities. The policy is blatantly discriminatory against women, especially in those office bases where the showers are open plan.
Simultaneously, my claim also includes claims of direct discrimination, harassment and victimisation related to my philosophical belief (gender-critical).
This is one of the first cases in England where a court will be asked to decide whether such a trans staff policy is discriminatory against employees with other protected characteristics. There has been no Equality Impact Assessment conducted in relation to the policy. When developing the policy, NHSE did not thoroughly consider the needs of women or the implications of trauma and religion, or the normal and common boundary a female member of staff might assert that she just simply does not want to shower in direct line of sight with a biological male.
The response from NHSE has been extremely disappointing. I have been told that all staff members are expected to follow the policy. I have been told that NHSE is already offering single-sex female facilities, which can be used both by “those born female, and those who identify as female.” Their rationale for not excluding transwomen from women’s facilities is that “even if there would only be one transwoman excluded from the female facilities, we would consider that unjustifiable unlawful discrimination.” In its response, NHSE effectively denies the relevance of biological sex as the basis for single-sex spaces.
My claim is that the current staff policy is discriminatory on the basis of sex, religion, belief and disability and the facilities should be made female-only by excluding males.
I will be applying for full anonymity, which will be essential for me to take the case forward, given my personal circumstances. If my application for anonymity is not accepted at the preliminary hearing, I will pass all remaining donations to another case of my choice which seeks to secure women’s single-sex facilities or services.
Please help by donating and sharing the link. Like with all court cases, there is a risk of losing. This crowdfunding pays for my legal fees. I will not be benefitting financially from the crowdfunding because the money raised will go directly to my legal team’s client account. Any compensation from the employer is likely to be modest. I am pursuing this case because women’s rights to safe spaces, safeguarding and consent should not be overridden.
Yours faithfully,
Faye Russell-Caldicott"

From FayeRC's own thread, here is the broad summary of events that has lead to this tribunal:

  • A male colleague transitioned in 2022. We were told the person would use facilities of their preference. Staff in my Directorate were told what was expected from us and this was in effect immediately.
  • We had open plan changing room and showers and usual cubicle toilets.
  • I am an actual woman, Muslim, gender critical and have PTSD. I cannot share facilities with males.
  • Following this, I raised in 2022 that facilities were effectively mixed sex. NHSE disagreed and said they were offering single-sex facilities for those born female and those who identified as female.
  • Raising these issues internally was extremely difficult for me and did not lead to any changes to staff policy. I argued ‘sex’ in EqAct 2010 meant biological and therefore could not include males who identified as women. They did not agree. Their interpretation was that if even one transwoman was excluded from female facilities that was discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment. I did tell them nearly all transwomen retained their penis and those who had it removed were males nevertheless.
  • I was effectively pushed out from female facilities to use gender neutral toilets which I have continued to use to date.
  • One would have thought Fife, Darlington and SC ruling were helpful but they have not prompted any changes to policy to date.
  • After SC ruling an all staff announcement was made in support of everyone, including those with trans supportive views and ‘other views’. Policy was put on hold and under review but not removed. It remains so for nearly a year later.
  • They have been waiting for EHRC guidance (on public service provision). I have told them they are waiting for a wrong piece of guidance. This is an employer-employee matter.
  • Policy was created with support from trade unions, Stonewall and GIRES. No women’s organisations, trauma support organisations or religious organisations were involved in policy drafting.

As mentioned earlier, I'll do my best to keep up with TT, but I've had a curveball thrown at me this weekend which will take up a chunk of Monday, however I shall keep you all posted so if somebody can take over when I am not available for all those that aren't on TwiX that would be great, alternatively I'll be sure to post the summaries at each break and redirect to Nitter in the interim.

Thank you to everybody who has already shown FayeRC their support, let's get this some traction and help a fellow wim out.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:11

NC: I was asking a simple factual Q - a 'transwoman', a male who says he's a woman, remains biologically male?

VH: Yes.

NC: The showers in [building] were fully open - half a dozen shower heads in an undivided space

VH: Yes

NC: Anyone using them could expect others to walk in, get undressed, and shower next to them?

VH: Yes

NC: [bundle ref] this is the 'trans equality' procedure we have looked at. 4.11.1 - says it should be worked out with each person which facilities to use, in line with full time gender presentation. Says, not acceptable to have trans ppl use disabled loos.

VH: Yes

OP posts:
Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:14

NC: What does 'full time presentation' mean. Clothes, make-up?

VH: Yes

NC: And when it says regardless of stage of transition, can only mean hormones and/or surgery?

VH: Yes

NC: So the policy says that a man who has taken no hormones and had no surgery, can go into those showers and shower next to a naked woman?

VH: Showers were not part of NHS estate, to do with the gym. [describing ground floor layout] not just NHSE staff - any tenant of the building.

OP posts:
CriticalCondition · 17/03/2026 16:15

Hmm, I wonder if those showers might ever need the attention of a hypothetical plumber...

And yes, SC can just fuck off.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:17

NC: there is nothing on the face of the policy to say only NHSE estate?

VH: I agree.

NC: On face of policy, a man whose only decision is his clothes can shower next to naked women?

VH: Cd be read that way yes.

NC: And if someone tried to say that such a man shouldn't use the showers, he would be able to point to the policy to say yes he should?

VH: I reiterate that the showers were not NHS estate, but used by NHSE staff yes.

NC: And if women had not read the policy closely, they wouldn't know they might be surprised naked in the shower room by a male colleague?

VH: Potentially.

OP posts:
Leavesandthings · 17/03/2026 16:17

Seems like SC is using his phrasing in his objections to imply that Faye and NC are the extremists. Hopefully NC puts him in his place.

Many thanks for the thread and the copying of the reporting, it is appreciated 👍

ProfNebulousDeadline · 17/03/2026 16:17

"not part of the estate"! But still in same building. Nebulous showers.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/03/2026 16:20

It seems that increasingly trans allies are more accepting of the position that TW remain biologically male. So you can't say they are "men", but you can say they are male. Some kind of progress, I guess.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:21

NC: [bundle ref] 7.1 - policy points to supplementary guidance for trans employees - is this the GIRES guidance and the Stonewall one and the Unison one? Saying, these are reliable sources of information?

VH: Yes

NC: If we look at the GIRES document. Has section on single-sex facilities, lots in common with NHSE policy. Says, all other users should be given awareness training when a trans person is going to start using SS facilties.

NC: So women should have been given training when the policy came in, that they could expect naked men in the women's communal showers?

[discussion of version of the GIRES doc confirms it was the current one in 2017]

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 17/03/2026 16:22

I'm just catching up, thank you Madcats & JimmyN for transcribing.
Yet again the wonderful NC saying eloquently the things we've been shouting at the screen for years about single sex spaces!

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/03/2026 16:22

" Awareness training" 😉

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:24

NC: You agreed that this was being referred to as helpful reliable guidance?

VH: Was perhaps a bit hasty there but yes essentially if we include / link a doc it means we are endorsing it. But I wd mainly have been thinking of NHSE estate facilities, not the rented one.

NC: GIRES doc says that if anyone objects to T person it is they not the T person must move to other areas?

VH: Yes

NC: So a woman with a problem with the showers should self exclude? VH: I am surprised by this content.

NC: Is it reasonable for women not to want to see naked male colleagues in the showers?

VH: Yes

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 17/03/2026 16:24

CriticalCondition · 17/03/2026 15:36

I do love it that NC uses a word like 'ticklish' whilst reducing a witness's evidence to shreds.

I loved 'This is standard EDI liturgy'😂

Hedgehogforshort · 17/03/2026 16:25

It beggars belief that open showers would be deemed okay to share and that somehow “training” would magic away female privacy issues.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/03/2026 16:26

"Is it reasonable for a woman not to want to see a man's re-modelled genitals"

ProfNebulousDeadline · 17/03/2026 16:26

VH: I am surprised by this content.

We aren't.

BamsWereAtIt · 17/03/2026 16:26

Making someone with PTSD go through this hearing, because these hubristic maniacs won't admit they were WRONG to expect women to share an OPEN SHOWER with a man. JFC. I have no words.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:26

NC: And even if he has had genital surgery, it is reasonable for women not to want to see his remodelled genitals?

VH: Harder to say on that.

NC: So there would be a range of views,

and some women might reasonably object?

VH: You would hope that people wouldn't be looking at each other in that way. NC: So that's the mitigation for women that object? Look away?

VH: No I am saying that everyone has a reasonable expectation of privacy even in showers.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 17/03/2026 16:26

Hedgehogforshort · 17/03/2026 16:25

It beggars belief that open showers would be deemed okay to share and that somehow “training” would magic away female privacy issues.

This questioning is revealing so much that has been wrong with EDI. We owe Faye a huge debt for bringing the case and providing NC with the oppo to demolish the policy in place.

fanOfBen · 17/03/2026 16:27

It's one thing to say the woman can look away if she doesn't want to see the man, but even if she does and even if that's enough to make that ok - it isn't - she can't control where he puts his eyes.

spannasaurus · 17/03/2026 16:27

VH: I am surprised by this content.

Clearly she didn't read the helpful reliable guidance before endorsing it

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 17/03/2026 16:28

fanOfBen · 17/03/2026 16:27

It's one thing to say the woman can look away if she doesn't want to see the man, but even if she does and even if that's enough to make that ok - it isn't - she can't control where he puts his eyes.

Well if the advocacy is that if you don't look you have no problem, it's the end of any issue isn't it? Trans identified men can go in the gents and just not look at the other men, job done.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:29

NC: That is the end of that set of Qs - good point to end?

[SC, NC, J discuss timings etc - NC says 30-45 minutes more cross-ex]

J: We will start at 10.00 again tomorrow.

[ENDS]

OP posts:
Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/03/2026 16:29

Ill post the thread reader link on my laptop in a few minutes it won't paste on my phone

OP posts:
MyAmpleSheep · 17/03/2026 16:29

Leavesandthings · 17/03/2026 16:17

Seems like SC is using his phrasing in his objections to imply that Faye and NC are the extremists. Hopefully NC puts him in his place.

Many thanks for the thread and the copying of the reporting, it is appreciated 👍

+1

weegielass · 17/03/2026 16:30

mic drop Naomi strikes again

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.