ECJ: EU law trumps national law on gender change register.

[BruachAbhann]

I can't see a thread on this yet so apologies if there already is one.

From what I can gather, this new EU ruling effectively means that if you have a gender change in one country (in the form of self-id for example), this must be recognised in any other EU country, including perhaps the country you're actually from.. EU law overrides the laws in any individual EU country, even if that country does not recognise a legal sex change.
This highlights just how entrenched trans ideology is in our political systems. It's unbelievable.

gript.ie/breaking-ecj-eu-law-trumps-national-law-on-gender-change/

@IwantToRetire A Statutory Declaration would cover it. IIRC they're even cheaper than a deed poll, you just sign a declaration before 2 witnesses, one with notary power, that this is your name now, they co-sign & Bob's your uncle.

IMO, name changes should only be possible via an enrolled Deed Poll - one set before the High Court & published in the Gazette. There should be some very narrow exceptions to publication for people fleeing proveable violence, stalking, etc, but all the rest should be Gazetted & findable by the public.

Thanks for that info.

I was a bit surprised by how easy it seems to be.

Are name changes listed on some publicly available web site.

If not, have now go to the point where I think it shouldn't be hidden.

Although I suppose having said that, I immediately thought that women escaping violent men should be able to hid their original men.

Need to think about this a bit more.

Thanks all. My main concern was the way that this judgement can be used to effectively override individual EU country laws so that the country with the most lenient self-id laws could effectively be the new standard for all EU countries.

I thought maybe the UK could push back on this if they decided not to recognise EU passports because of the incorrect data. I didn't realise it's possible to record someone as the opposite sex on UK passports too. I am totally exhausted at the moment from thinking about this.

TRAs got quite the head start with lobbying for these insane laws (some of it dates back to the 70s) but remember that they don’t have material reality on their side and they are losing public sympathy daily because of the negative effects of these laws on the rest of society.

I've been wondering if countries could push back by seperating out sex and gender properly. Part of the issue, it seems to me, is that law makers took what they saw as a simple step of equating sex and gender whn they started making these laws. If they, instead, insisted that sex, like date of birth, was a matter of objective reality but gender, like a name, was a matter of choice, then they could record both, let people change gender as they pleased, and use the most appropriate of the two when one was needed fro something. So anything where we separate because of different bodies - sex. Anything where fertility is relevant - sex. Anything where gendered presentation might be relevant - gender (can't, personally, think of when gendered presentation is relevant that the government and laws should be involved in, other than equality legislation and, perhaps, ID. (Since some trans people, especially trans identified women, do pass reasonably well. In those cases ID should say "Gender Identity: F (or M, of N/A)" not "Sex: F/M" though with ID, you might need sex too, I suppose.

Absolutely. It should never have been allowed to change documents like that, a momemt's thought tells you it's an idiotic idea, but that where the TRAs got in first, as you say, regrettably.

Only enrolled deed polls are published in the Gazette & it's a matter of choice whether to enroll or not, statutory declarations aren't gazetted at all.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

I'm hoping someone will take the Passport Office to judicial review for creating fraudulent documents.

Logically, any employer who has accepted a passport as ID who finds themselves unable to follow the law (but wanting to do so) on single-sex spaces could do this.

For example, if an employer has used a TW's passport as ID and has recorded the employee's sex as 'female', it may be difficult to keep the employee out of the women's toilets. The employee has documents which "prove" female status, so it's unclear how the employer could follow the law, if the TW insists that "I am a female". It's a stalemate situation and the Passport Office is the origin of the problem.

Ultimately, the GRA is going to need amending or to be scrapped because we've got the same issue with birth certificates, when someone applies for a GRC. Employers need to know the sex of their employees so that they can hold their staff to account re single-sex spaces.

Hopefully we'll see the failure of an employer to keep males out of women's facilities tested in court in the Peggie appeal. I'm going to assume that NHS Fife have recorded that Upton is female. Upton said in court that "I am a biological female". Hopefully Upton has a passport to back this up. Let's see what happens 🍿

(It would be a great twist in the tale if NHS Fife loses at the Employment Appeal Tribunal and then takes the Passport Office to court for providing Upton with fraudulent ID documents....)

Actually, just thinking this through a bit more....

I wonder who has broken the law. Where does the employer's obligation stop?

For example, do they simply need to provide single-sex spaces but that's it? I.e. are they no longer legally accountable after this point for who uses them? Does that fall onto the employee to know their own sex (which they obviously will) and follow the law appropriately?

And if they don't (like Dr Upton didn't), what then?

That would be great and I'd say all these small fights are what's needed to roll back on everything. It's going to take a long time I know, but at least the UK has the law on its side. The EU has an even longer uphill battle ahead.

It's crazy that passports are now about as accurate as having a lego driving license from Legoland!

It's crazy that passports are now about as accurate as having a lego driving license from Legoland!

Funnily enough, driving licences have the same issue. It's just less obvious. The DVLA allows anyone to change their sex on their driving licence (just like the Passport Office and passports) but the M or F is buried in the driver number.

The UK passport office allows for a 'crossdresser' route.

Well, things have just been updated.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition/gender-recognition-accessible

'Unlike the gender recognition certificate (GRC) the issue of a passport in an acquired gender does not give legal recognition of the change of gender. For passport purposes, the question is only whether the person has permanently adopted a new identity.

We show the customer’s gender on the personal details page of the passport. It will not always match the gender recorded on their birth certificate, as there is no indication in the passport of the customer’s personal circumstances.'

'A customer’s gender is known as an acquired gender:

before the customer receives their Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)
if they change their gender identity permanently but do not intend to:
undergo any medical procedure to change their sex
get a GRC
A customer’s gender is known as an affirmed gender if we know they have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

In this guidance only, any reference to a ‘new gender’ is either an affirmed or acquired gender.'

Well what a confusing and unhelpful “clarification”. What would have been wrong with saying that the passport is not a confirmation of biological sex?

'Before we can issue a passport in the changed gender, we need evidence confirming the gender change is likely to be permanent (unless the customer identifies as a crossdresser). We also need evidence the name is being used for all purposes (for example, bank statements, utility bills, payslips or child benefit statements for children).

For renewal applications, you may need to ask for a referee unless you can identify the customer from the photo on their previous passport record'

The entire page is long and complicated exercise in arse covering. It won't work, though. The nonbinary bit is almost funny - how to tell someone they are either male or female without getting a meltdown and another court case.

'Crossdressers

We can only issue a passport if it is established the customer is using their new identity for all purposes. You, the examiner, must not issue a passport in a name or gender a customer uses for some but not all purposes.

If the customer cannot provide medical evidence, they must make a statement confirming they permanently use the preferred identity. They must also have a referee confirm their new identity and send us evidence if they have changed their name (see Names – evidence to change a name).'

So if a crossdresser just puts on a wig and skirt on Fridays he can make a statement and get his pal to write in and that's fine? We run a tight ship!

I wonder how much money the gender movement has cost the UK taxpayer, in terms of creating and writing policies to suit them, emplying additional staff, in almost every org you can think of, public and private sector. All for this tiny proportion of the population. who are never pleased or satisfied, of course, anyway.

They are supposed to provide single-sex facilities (plus possibly single-user unisex) and inform people which are which and what the expectations are. If an employee doesn't follow the rules then normal disciplinary procedures. Same as anyone else who doesn't follow the organisation's rules. One of the judges said this - I think the judge who rejected the Good Law Project's case against the EHRC.

It's really not complicated.

Brexit like trans rights is one of those issues where people are more obsessed with being on a particular side without looking at the underlying issues, and no one dare saying negative aspects to their side of the argument.

I think issues like trans rights can easily get through the EU, because the politicians aren't that bothered. But with something like Ukraine, after months of talking they refuse to release the seized Russian assets. So the only time there is EU agreement is on matters they don't really care about.

In regards to this the UK should be worried as Brexit with a breaking away from EU laws and regulations never happened, and with the dynamic alignment this could well come to the UK, particularly if this is referred to the ECHR (although that sits outside of the EU).

Depending on the circumstances, the employer might be guilty of harassment or discrimination against their female employees for not enforcing single sex spaces properly.

Thanks for posting this.

But yet again this looks like the Government ie Labour bending over backwards to say that Stonewall never went too far, that of course all of us, including bureaucracy should always afirm what is essentially a life style choice.

It is just disgusting that they are continuing to connive to not upset the Rainbow coalition with all this back door affirmation.

And they wont even undertake what is procedurally correct, ie implement the new guidelines acknowledgeing the Supreme Court decision.

All these people, mainly women, who have resorted to the extremely expensive court route, and the emotional strain of doing that, and Labour wont back up or implement these legal affirmation of women's sex based rights.

But in the meantime they have used civil service time, and no doubt expensive consultants to draw up this pick and mix non legal frame work for this proportionately tiny group.

Its a total slap in the face for women, and a big raspberry to those campaigning when clearly you just need the right contacts in Government and you can chane the social norms of the UK.

Every day I think I cant get any angrier, but find I can but loathe feeling like this all the time.

Am just wondering if this shouldn't have a thread of its own, because many wont see this has happened as they wont be on this thread.

And it is, even though a back door action, or will have an impact on many.