The hypocrisy of condemning Epstein while supporting ‘sex work’

[IwantToRetire]

The legacy of socialist feminists such as Alexandra Kollontai challenges us today to confront an uncomfortable truth: framing prostitution as empowerment lets the abusers of the Epstein class off the hook
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/hypocrisy-condemning-epstein-while-supporting-sex-work

(Have just realised that being a Terf and complaining about how modern feminism has losts its roots, is like being a Marxist and bemoaning the rise socialist consumerism!)

Thank you for posting. I have had several discussions with people who seem to believe that “sex work” is a good thing and I despair at their inability to consider the proportion of women with underlying trauma before starting down this path - as well as the potentially devastating psychological effects of actually doing it.

Now the same people are upset about Epstein- but still consider legal prostitution something empowering. I just don’t understand it.

I agree, and have very specific opinions on this subject.

Prostitution was made legal is my country in 2002 by the CDU. The idea was to improve the situation of sex workers and curb human trafficking which, on the face of it, is obviously a good thing.
The law change was cautiously supported by a lot of people when it came in.

But now, twenty years later? It's done the exact opposite. We've become a hub for human trafficking in Europe and a sex-tourism destination for men everywhere.
We have a huge number of women working as unregistered sex workers, and some recent reports have suggested - suggested, not proved - that the vast majority of them are probably victims of trafficking.

The situation is horrible, and a lot of those 'men' who come here for our legal prostitution then go on to commit assaults, especially when drunk, against women who have nothing to do with the sex industry.

Agree, and thanks for sharing. It’s something I feel strongly about and I’ve long been uncomfortable with the narrative around sex work. Particularly that men who buy sex aren’t aware that the women are trafficked - many of them, when interviewed, revealed they were well aware of it.

I found this report very educational and eye-opening.

https://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/sites/default/files/2018-11/ICI%20AntiTrafficking%20Report2018-A4-WEBSITE-FA.pdf

Also this:

https://www.thejensenproject.org/how-the-survivor-model-fights-sex-trafficking-in-america/

The misogyny surrounding our entire perception of prostitutes (vs the men that use them) is staggering. Even down to the profusion of shaming swear words referring to women who sell sex, none at all for men who buy sex. We need to flip the script.

@Chingchok

I've been looking at the second of the links that you provided. Under the sub-heading 'Evidence-based effectiveness' it states 'Studies indicate that criminalizing the purchase of sex has reduced demand, discouraged sex trafficking, and led to a decline in street-based prostitution'.

When you click on the link for evidence of reduced demand you find the statement 'Take Sweden, where the Equality Model was implemented in 1999. That country saw a 50% decrease in street prostitution and a significant decline in the number of men purchasing sex within two years after the law was implemented'.

There is no reference to any study that shows this. I have not heard this before anywhere. The usual statistics that are used are from the surveys that were conducted in Sweden in 1996 and 2008. I don't know where they get the 'within two years' from.

In 1996, 1.3% of Swedish men were active sex buyers. In 2008, 1.8% of Swedish men were active sex buyers. In 1996, 12.7% of Swedish men had paid for sex at some time in their life. In 2008, 7.6% of Swedish men had paid for sex at some time in their life. That figure went up to 10.2% in the next survey, in 2011.

We also have figures for women who have been paid for sex at some time in their life. In 1996, it was 0.3%. In 2008, it was 1.1%. All of these figures come from Prostitution in Sweden 2014 The extent and development of prostitution in Sweden by Endrit Mujaj and Amanda Netscher (Länsstyrelsen 2015).

So, two out of these three statistics show an increase in prostitution after the introduction of the Nordic/Equality Model in 1999. This includes the most important one, which is the number of men purchasing sex - active sex buyers. The other one shows a decrease but then a rise.

When it comes to the supposed 50% decrease in street prostitution, what actually happened is that it decreased to almost zero in 1999 but then gradually increased until by 2007 two-thirds had returned in Stockholm. Studies in 1981 and 1995 said that street prostitution was decreasing then. In many countries street prostitution has been decreasing, the Swedes can't claim that it is their law that has done this.

Street prostitutes were only ever 10-20% of the total number of prostitutes. Just because they are no longer on the street doesn't mean that they are no longer prostitutes. All this shows that the Nordic/Equality Model doesn't work at reducing demand. You can add evidence from Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and France too. That's why we don't support it - it makes everything worse!

All this shows that the Nordic/Equality Model doesn't work at reducing demand. You can add evidence from Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and France too. That's why we don't support it - it makes everything worse!

So what do you recommend? Or do you take the view that nothing can be done?

Jenny, thanks for the comprehensive reply raising some pertinent points. I have to admit that I’m not super familiar with the European situation and I only came across this model recently. I do speak Swedish tho, can have a look for the research when I have a moment. Do you think that over time, this model could still have the intended effect by attaching social stigma to the act of paying for sex? Or it will just continue to push prostitution behind closed doors, putting women at greater risk?

Living in Bangkok for almost 2 decades, I’ve seen hundreds of men from all of the aforementioned countries, whether tourists or residents, including young backpackers, normalising buying sex. They often kid themselves they are helping women and girls out of poverty.

So… what to do? Personally my own tiny part is raising my son as a feminist, teaching him empathy and to speak up (for example) when other boys are throwing the word “ho”. around. Refusing to laugh along when men are joking about visiting prostitutes. And also to completely stop using and tolerating misogynistic swear words, which was tough because I am a big fan of swearing, and in some languages it’s so common we don’t even think twice.

But I’m so over insulting (often traumatised, coerced or trafficked) women just trying to make a living, while giving the men bland names like punters or johns. And watching vile men abuse children and smash up the world and then we call them sons of bitches, sons of whores (in some languages) motherfuckers, cunts. Let shame change sides.

Not against discussing the Nordic Model, although on other threads I started specifically about that no one was really interested.

At in a way it implies that prostitution is inevitable.

I took the article linked in the OP to be about the attitudes that continue that women selling their bodies is okay.

This is about the hyporcrasy of the male culture which is why prostitution exists. ie the "demand" by men that women should be available to them.

Not by shrugging that "men will be men" so can we somehow making it less exploitative of women.

... In ancient times the number of prostitutes was small, and there was not that hypocrisy which colours the morality of the bourgeois world and compels bourgeois society to raise its hat respectfully to the ‘lawful wife” of an industrial magnate who has obviously sold herself to a husband she does not love, and to turn away in disgust from a girl forced into the streets by poverty, homelessness, unemployment and other social circumstances which derive from the existence of capitalism and private property. ...

With the rise of capitalism, the picture changes. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries prostitution assumes threatening proportions for the first time. The sale of women’s labour, which is closely and inseparably connected with the sale of the female, body, steadily increases, leading to a situation where the respected wife of a worker, and not just the abandoned and “dishonoured” girl, joins the ranks of the prostitutes: a mother for the sake of her children, or a young girl like Sonya Marmeladova for the sake of her family. This is the horror and hopelessness that results from the exploitation of labour by capital. When a woman’s wages are insufficient to keep her alive, the sale of favours seems a possible subsidiary occupation. The hypocritical morality of bourgeois society encourages prostitution by the structure of its exploitative economy, while at the same time mercilessly covering with contempt any girl or woman who is forced to take this path. ...

Alexandra Kollontai, 1921

I wonder though, has anyone examined whether it is “less worse” than the German or Thai model. I mean the internet has ruined men and seeks to normal women being commoditized. - Thanks for wanting that for my daughters and striving to make it their reality

Somebody seems to be a fan of Alexandra Kollontai.

In the 1917 election for the Constituent Assembly in Russia women had equal votes to men. Some people voted for Bolsheviks like Kollontai but most people voted for the Socialist Revolutionary Party. So the Bolsheviks, who had staged a coup by this time, dissolved the Constituent Assembly.

The votes of millions of women and men were ignored and they never had real votes again. The dictator Lenin was never going to allow people voting to remove him from power. The Bolsheviks manipulated the soviets so that they always stayed in control.

So my opinion of Alexandra Kollontai is that she colluded with the dictator Lenin to take votes away from women. She was an enabler of a mass murderer. People were exploited more not less. People starved. People were tortured and killed by the Cheka or sent to concentration camps.

There are two opinions about what can be done. The Radical Feminists, Evangelical Christians and Roman Catholics believe prostitution can never be made safe but it can be reduced. They will say eliminated as in 'end demand' but when questioned they don't think it can be ended.

Other feminists believe it can't be eliminated but it can be made safer. It can be reduced somewhat, not by police action but by increasing the amount spent on rehab and having a better social security system. Using social interventions to reduce drug addiction and poverty, although only a minority of prostitutes do it because of addiction or destitution. In the case of coercion, the law needs to deal with that as it does with any form of modern slavery.

That's why it's important to examine carefully the statistics from countries like Ireland, France and especially Sweden to see if there really has been a reduction. The lives of prostitutes are made more difficult and possibly more dangerous under the Nordic Model. That might be justified if they really did manage to substantially reduce the amount of prostitution. Otherwise it's making women suffer for no good reason without an end to it.

If you believe that 60% of prostitutes are enslaved, as the Radical Feminists do, then you're not going to believe things can be made safer. That's not true though. The choice for women who want to make money from prostitution is work alone which is not safe, work with another woman which is not legal in the UK or Nordic Model countries, or work for a pimp.

The ideal would be for women to work together keeping the profits for themselves and making the rules for themselves. They don't need pimps. That doesn't happen in Germany where women have to ask for permission from the state or they will be punished. That favours big brothels. In New Zealand however women don't need permission to work together and there are many SOOBs (Small Owner‑Operated Brothels).