Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
Datun · 27/02/2026 15:13

If she had simply accepted being a gay boy, she would have been... a gay boy. In 2020s Britain. With a supportive family. There's no particular stigma to escape there, certainly nothing that would justify years of medical treatment and social difficulty. The "transing away the gay" hypothesis requires that transition is the easier path. It isn't. It really isn't.

It's not question of being easier, it's a question of homophobia.

No one says what's easier, being trans or gay?

MyAmpleSheep · 27/02/2026 15:25

sarahd89 · 27/02/2026 15:09

I'm not going to argue about definitions. You've made your position clear, and I've made mine. We're not going to agree, and that's fine.
But I will address your two substantive points.
On "transing away the gay": the concern there, as I understand it, is that a young person who is same-sex attracted is encouraged to transition so they can appear heterosexual. A gay boy becomes a "straight girl" to avoid the stigma of being gay. That's a legitimate concern to raise.
But think about what you're actually suggesting in my daughter's case. She was assigned male at birth. She's attracted to boys. If she had simply accepted being a gay boy, she would have been... a gay boy. In 2020s Britain. With a supportive family. There's no particular stigma to escape there, certainly nothing that would justify years of medical treatment and social difficulty. The "transing away the gay" hypothesis requires that transition is the easier path. It isn't. It really isn't.
On your second point: no, I'm not referencing a meme. I'm referencing my daughter, in her bedroom, telling me she didn't want to be here anymore. That happened. It wasn't an argument I deployed to win a debate. It was a Tuesday evening in my house.
I understand you're sceptical of parents who report these things. I understand the concern that distress gets weaponised to shut down questions. But I'm not asking you to make policy based on my daughter's experience. I'm asking you to accept that she exists, that her distress was real, and that I made the best decision I could with the child in front of me.

To address your two substantive points, the "transing away the gay" theme can be internal to your child as well as externally imposed. Was it explored in therapy? Hopefully, it was.

The second point, similarly. It may not have been a point you deployed, but it may have been a point your child deployed. Again - you may not feel it was said or used in that way.

I'm sure you made what you thought and still think were the best decisions for your child. Some here will say you were reckless or irresponsible in wielding your parental authority. I don't comment. As I've said, I've seen that decision made in my extended family. It hasn't worked out well.

Aside from damage to your child which as a parent you and not we (or I) have to bear the responsibility for, I think that one place we differ is that your support for your child leads you to aims for wider society that you feel will advantage them; but we don't see the advantage to them as worth the wider disadvantage.

Beowulfa · 27/02/2026 15:29

I'm sorry this probably feels like a pile-on, sarahd89. There are other parents of gender-distressed teens on this site who are also desperately worried about their children. There are no glib, easy answers.

A boy who has been told by the adults in his life that he can magically change sex, that nobody will ever notice, and that it doesn't matter anyway is going to encounter disappointment:

-micro-penis thanks to puberty blockers
-hugely reduced dating pool
-risks when trying to date (how many heterosexual teenage boys like being flirted with by another boy?)
-infertility (not something 16 year olds tend to care about)
-difficulty in ever changing his mind

I note you quoted the Yale Law School critique of the Cass Report. This has been widely trashed. You also mention the Dutch Protocol. Are you aware that one of the original study participants died?

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 15:31

sarahd89 · 27/02/2026 14:56

Your definition is only your definition. You are not entitled to decide that is the only definition available for the rest of the world

God not this again.

No sex does actually matter for various clinical and legal reasons which you and your son will find out in time.

It never fails to disturb me just how many people have been mislead (and therefore can not give informed consent) that children can change sex.

nicepotoftea · 27/02/2026 15:32

sarahd89 · 27/02/2026 15:09

I'm not going to argue about definitions. You've made your position clear, and I've made mine. We're not going to agree, and that's fine.
But I will address your two substantive points.
On "transing away the gay": the concern there, as I understand it, is that a young person who is same-sex attracted is encouraged to transition so they can appear heterosexual. A gay boy becomes a "straight girl" to avoid the stigma of being gay. That's a legitimate concern to raise.
But think about what you're actually suggesting in my daughter's case. She was assigned male at birth. She's attracted to boys. If she had simply accepted being a gay boy, she would have been... a gay boy. In 2020s Britain. With a supportive family. There's no particular stigma to escape there, certainly nothing that would justify years of medical treatment and social difficulty. The "transing away the gay" hypothesis requires that transition is the easier path. It isn't. It really isn't.
On your second point: no, I'm not referencing a meme. I'm referencing my daughter, in her bedroom, telling me she didn't want to be here anymore. That happened. It wasn't an argument I deployed to win a debate. It was a Tuesday evening in my house.
I understand you're sceptical of parents who report these things. I understand the concern that distress gets weaponised to shut down questions. But I'm not asking you to make policy based on my daughter's experience. I'm asking you to accept that she exists, that her distress was real, and that I made the best decision I could with the child in front of me.

I sympathise with your argument that you made the decision that you thought was best given the available information.

The problem is that it seems that the information you had was either wrong or incomplete.

MyAmpleSheep · 27/02/2026 15:34

nicepotoftea · 27/02/2026 15:05

I understand the point you are making about a squabble, but without mutually understood definitions how do you establish consent?

I keep trying to write a reasoned reply to this and when I read it back it's sanctimonious rubbish, so I keep deleting it. You are fundamentally right.

But @sarahd89 is a thoughtful contributor and I don't want her to be chased away over the way she uses words.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 15:37

sarahd89 · 27/02/2026 15:07

I understand your frustration, and I'm not going to pretend my daughter's experience is research. It isn't. Anecdote isn't data. I know that.
But I'd push back on the implication that parents like me are simply ignorant. I've read the research. I've read the criticisms of the research. I've read the Dutch studies and the questions about whether their protocol can be generalised. I've read the concerns about bone density, about the lack of control groups, about the changing demographics of who's presenting.
And since you mention the UK research, I've also read the peer-reviewed critiques of the Cass Review itself. A study published in BMC Medical Research Methodology applied the ROBIS tool (a validated instrument for assessing bias in systematic reviews) and found a high risk of bias in all seven systematic reviews the Cass Review relied upon, driven by unexplained protocol deviations, ambiguous eligibility criteria, and failure to integrate these limitations into conclusions.
The Yale Law School's critique pointed out that the Cass Review fails to contextualise the evidence for gender-affirming care against the evidence base for other areas of paediatric medicine, where treatments are routinely provided based on similar quality evidence.
The Canadian Paediatric Society stated there are "significant limitations, biases, and inaccuracies within the Review" and that it includes "incorrect citations of evidence and inaccurate, sometimes scientifically disproven speculations."
Multiple international medical bodies have criticised the methodology, including Germany, Austria, and Switzerland's clinical practice guidelines group, which criticised the Cass Review's methodology, conclusions, and lack of transparency.
I made a decision with imperfect information because that was the only kind of information available, and because waiting for perfect information wasn't a cost-free option when my child was in crisis.
What would you say to a parent whose child is in acute distress right now, today? Not in five years when better research might exist. Today. What's the advice? Wait and hope? Therapy that isn't available because CAMHS is overwhelmed? Watch and see what happens?
I'm not asking rhetorically. I genuinely want to know what you think parents in that position should do, practically, with the child in front of them.

If you have read up and there's enough information, why do we need another study then? We've got all the data we need - except there's literally nothing anyone can quote me about long term outcome and success rates. Indeed no one can explain what success looks like. Neither can anyone quote me anything relating to harms, which we know are happening but are happily being buried under the patio cos they don't fit the narrative of everyone living happily ever after.

StellaAndCrow · 27/02/2026 15:42

MyAmpleSheep · 27/02/2026 15:25

To address your two substantive points, the "transing away the gay" theme can be internal to your child as well as externally imposed. Was it explored in therapy? Hopefully, it was.

The second point, similarly. It may not have been a point you deployed, but it may have been a point your child deployed. Again - you may not feel it was said or used in that way.

I'm sure you made what you thought and still think were the best decisions for your child. Some here will say you were reckless or irresponsible in wielding your parental authority. I don't comment. As I've said, I've seen that decision made in my extended family. It hasn't worked out well.

Aside from damage to your child which as a parent you and not we (or I) have to bear the responsibility for, I think that one place we differ is that your support for your child leads you to aims for wider society that you feel will advantage them; but we don't see the advantage to them as worth the wider disadvantage.

Edited

I heard an interview with Ritchie Herron and another MtFtM detransitioner. They talked about their experiences of being seen as gay and/or effeminate men vs being seen as transwomen.

They both reported that they got a LOT more abuse (from men) for being not-sufficiently-masculine men than they did for being trans. It was enlightening to me. I've heard similar from other gay men - they had really difficult child/teen/young adult experiences.

StellaAndCrow · 27/02/2026 15:44

And the surgeries involved are so very complex and invasive. Even more so for boys who have been on puberty blockers, because of the lack of pubertal development of genital tissue.

The idea of healthy bodies having these surgeries just seems to lack a proper weighing up of risk and benefit.

borntobequiet · 27/02/2026 15:49

What a very convincing account of the perfect, idealised transition we have been given.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 27/02/2026 15:52

She's attracted to boys, which as a trans girl would make her straight, not gay. So "transing away the gay" doesn't fit her.

Isn't a 'trans' girl a boy, and isn't a boy who's attracted to other boys gay and if your child is male and he's sexually attracted to males, then he's homosexual, so how is it not a case of 'transing' the gay away.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 15:54

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 27/02/2026 15:52

She's attracted to boys, which as a trans girl would make her straight, not gay. So "transing away the gay" doesn't fit her.

Isn't a 'trans' girl a boy, and isn't a boy who's attracted to other boys gay and if your child is male and he's sexually attracted to males, then he's homosexual, so how is it not a case of 'transing' the gay away.

Magical words that we are not allowed to define. Only a mum who is demonstrating homophobia by claiming gender is sex is allowed to (replacing gender with sex is a recognised form of homophobia).

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 15:58

Noting her that this new research was opposed because of concerns about just how many participants at the Tavistock were same sex attracted. I believe one of the problems with the Dutch protocol is similar - so homophobic ideas are a massive issue for the integrity of data and findings.

Large numbers of gay children being disproportionately sterilised and having life long medicalisation rather than dealing with being gay is not a good outcome.

Seriestwo · 27/02/2026 16:06

sarahd89 · 27/02/2026 14:09

I hear you, and I don't think we're as far apart as it might seem.
I agree that psychological support should be the first line of response, and that it should be well funded and readily available. The current situation where young people wait years for any help at all is failing everyone, regardless of what treatment they eventually need.
On the specific concerns you raise: yes, there are questions about bone density and blockers. The research is ongoing, and monitoring matters. But "preserving IQ" isn't quite accurate to the current evidence. The studies that raised cognitive concerns were small and methodologically limited. I'm not dismissing them, but they're not settled science either.
Here's what I keep coming back to though. You say "speaking therapy which is evidenced to help in distress from dysmorphia." But gender dysphoria isn't the same as body dysmorphia. They present differently, respond to different interventions, and have different trajectories. Treating them as interchangeable leads to approaches that don't actually address what the young person is experiencing.
My daughter had therapy. Lots of it. It helped with her anxiety, her depression, her ability to cope with school. What it didn't do was make her feel at home in her body. That's what blockers, and later hormones, did.
I'm genuinely open to better research, longer assessment periods, more psychological support alongside any medical intervention. What I can't accept is the assumption that the right answer for every young person is no medical pathway ever, regardless of their individual presentation and regardless of how they respond to other approaches.
What would evidence need to show for you to consider that medical intervention might be appropriate for some young people?

I understand the evidence and thinking of managing gender dysphoria, though. My neice was under GIDs. She’s nearly 10 years on and remains with visible ASD traits, cripplingly anxious only now she is also overweight, balding, has joint pain and is very emotional to the point that she has lost jobs from flying off the handle with colleagues. It looks to me like she is “stuck” at a 14 year old maturity but she is 24 now. She don’t get CAMHS help because the waiting list was awful and her suicidality wasn’t bad enough to get seen by a service that was on its knees. And she is same sex attracted and very sad - she wants a partner and I can’t help but think it would have been easier to meet someone if she could get out of a chair without pain and go to uni and do all the age appropriate things she gave up for gender clinic.

I can’t tell my sister that, of course. They believed she would kill herself if they didn’t do all this. She did have maybe 3 years of being happier, but she was high on testosterone, wasn’t she? The reality is her distress remains the same, she’s still unhappy but now she has health problems and social problems and I worry for her. The one thing that is trrue is she has done all these things but is not a man. She’ll never be a man. She has been sold a lie and will have to make her peace with that when she realises that nobody sees her as a man - including me.

immglad your child is doing well, and I hope your long term outcome is better than my neice’s.

Datun · 27/02/2026 16:12

borntobequiet · 27/02/2026 15:49

What a very convincing account of the perfect, idealised transition we have been given.

Indeed. I may be cynical, but there's a damn good reason for that.

Personally, I'm always a little suspicious about the ideological language being deployed. It indicates less a concerned parent, and more someone totally bought into the entire issue.

Plus the massive in-depth knowledge about studies that have since been trashed, but a distinct lack of curiosity about the reasons for the child transitioning in the first place.

That's not to say that I don't have tremendous sympathy for parents whose child wants to transition. It's one of the reasons why I want it out of schools, and to be constantly challenged on social media.

It must be a living nightmare for parents whose children are caught up in it. And it's the means by which they are caught up in it that has made me cynical in the first place.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 16:16

Datun · 27/02/2026 16:12

Indeed. I may be cynical, but there's a damn good reason for that.

Personally, I'm always a little suspicious about the ideological language being deployed. It indicates less a concerned parent, and more someone totally bought into the entire issue.

Plus the massive in-depth knowledge about studies that have since been trashed, but a distinct lack of curiosity about the reasons for the child transitioning in the first place.

That's not to say that I don't have tremendous sympathy for parents whose child wants to transition. It's one of the reasons why I want it out of schools, and to be constantly challenged on social media.

It must be a living nightmare for parents whose children are caught up in it. And it's the means by which they are caught up in it that has made me cynical in the first place.

It's all rainbows, glitter and sugar coated "and we all lived happily ever after" isn't it? Instaperfect. Which we know is just completely bollocks.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 27/02/2026 16:16

Are we being spammed by the 'trans'bots again. They really don't like it when women are not talking about them, 'we'll put a stop to that, unleash the bots'. 🤖

DameProfessorIDareSay · 27/02/2026 16:18

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 27/02/2026 16:16

Are we being spammed by the 'trans'bots again. They really don't like it when women are not talking about them, 'we'll put a stop to that, unleash the bots'. 🤖

A number of threads do seem to have been targeted today; someone sent up the ‘Danger! Women are talking!’ balloon again.

Seriestwo · 27/02/2026 16:22

I’m so tired of the assumption that nobody with an opposing view from TRAs really understands the issues, we just need some empathy and insights. This gender stuff has wreaked havoc in my family and it’s not done with us yet.

Datun · 27/02/2026 16:23

Indeed. Plus the very concerned mother of a teenage boy has an awful lot to say about why men should be allowed in rape refuges on another thread.

And yes, there's something of ChatGPT to the beginning of all the posts.

RedToothBrush · 27/02/2026 16:25

DameProfessorIDareSay · 27/02/2026 16:18

A number of threads do seem to have been targeted today; someone sent up the ‘Danger! Women are talking!’ balloon again.

Quiet day on Reddit.

BonfireLady · 27/02/2026 16:41

@sarahd89 , taking everything you are saying here at face value, I do hope this isn't all coming across as a pile-on. Thank you for being here and for engaging.

As a parent, it's awful hearing your child say they wish they were dead. I've had that experience - my daughter has said it on more than one occasion. I've also had the experience of my daughter kicking and hitting me, at one point pretty much on a daily basis. She wouldn't leave her room for months. She's not an only child, so we also had to think about sibling safety in this mix. In short, it was horrendous and the really intense period lasted months.

Everything began with her asking us for puberty blockers, just before her 13th birthday. She then backtracked a few days later and said it had been a joke. Then asked for them again after a couple of months and it was clear that she was serious. She said she didn't know if she was really a girl and this medicine would give her time to think about that. This was somewhat of a surprise, as I knew nothing about gender identity at the time, but taking a pause seemed reasonable. At this point, we looked at the NHS website which said that the impact on the developing teenage brain is unknown... So we told her she couldn't have them.

I'm intrigued by your reference to the alternative to PBs being "doing nothing". I didn't do nothing. I joined a "trans parents' network" at my work to listen to other parents, I bought a book on gender dysphoria (it's an excellent book, written by Sue and Marcus Evans) and taught myself how to listen to what my daughter was telling me about her distress and how to do a differential diagnosis to unpick and then start to slowly address what might be causing the dysphoria. I felt lost and scared. I didn't know what I was doing and my daughter's mental health was getting worse and worse.

Fast forward to now, nearly 4 years later, and she's going to school, doing all her hobbies again (music, football and more) and (for the most part) thriving, albeit while still in recovery from the trauma of being bullied at school for a sustained period of time. Despite the mostly positive direction of travel, we're still having to follow a watchful waiting approach because she's still really unhappy about her developing body. She would still love to take testosterone if it was safe to do so - she's told me this recently. She knows she's female though and she knows that taking testosterone wouldn't change this. I'm hoping that as she continues to mature, she will continue to reconcile with her body. She's making progress on this. Although she still hates periods - she only gets them occasionally, because she's on the pill - she no longer screams the house down, self-harms or attacks family members when she gets them.

Our stories are obviously different but it feels like there are some similarities and it comes across very strongly how much you love your child. And how hard it's been working out what's best, with so much conflicting information.

I have a few questions. How old was your child when:

  1. PBs were started?
  2. everyone started using she/her pronouns to describe your child
  3. feelings of distress about "gender" were first obvious?

One thing that jumps out at me hugely in terms of difference between your and my experiences, as mums of children who have expressed gender dysphoria, is that when I first heard that PBs had an unknown impact on the developing brain, that became a hard line "no" for me. Not matter what, this was never going to change. By contrast, you said (and I hope I get this right, as I'm paraphrasing from a post of yours earlier) that the science isn't settled yet on brain development impact.

Apologies if this comes across as judgemental, but I genuinely find it astounding that anyone would support their child's brain being experimented upon with unsettled science. I truly hope that your child continues to feel happy and is able to mature into adulthood without cognitive impairment. I can't remember which PP said it, but I would love to know that all the children who had been given PBs for gender dysphoria were now thriving as adults. That would be amazing. But it sadly seems highly unlikely, or there wouldn't be all this reluctance from the adult gender clinics to share the long term outcomes of the GIDS patients.

Edited to add that I'm taking what you're saying here in this thread at face value. After writing my comment above I saw i couple of people commenting that you've been on other threads talking about why males (who identify as women) should be allowed into women's refuges. If that's also true, I would like to clarify that I have no empathy/sympathy for that viewpoint whatsoever. That's a hard no from me.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/02/2026 16:53

I was listening to a recent interview with Hannah Barnes where she said that one of the most surprising and distressing things about her investigation into the Tavistock was talking to ex-patients about how much the homophobia that she thought had gone away since the 1980s was still rampant in schools and how deeply those young people had suffered from it. And how much better it had been for them socially at school to be "trans" than to be or seem effeminate gay or butch/tomboy lesbian.

What parents should do is what clinicians used to do: reassure, watch and wait. Because if you don't affirm and you don't medicate then more than half and up to 90% (studies vary) will desist and settle into their own bodies. "Watch and wait" is the best treatment so far and medical intervention must be proven to give better results than that or it shouldn't be used at all, because of the negative effects it has on physical health, fertility and all the rest.

What would evidence need to show for you to consider that medical intervention might be appropriate for some young people?

I would consider it if there was:
(a) some evidence that anyone knew how to distinguish those children for whom it would be appropriate from the others. A vague "might" is not good enough when the physical effects of medical interventions are so unhealthy in themselves. Doctors need to be able to pick out a group for whom medical intervention will is more likely to be better than just leaving them alone; and so far no-one has found such a group;

(b) some evidence that the long-term effects of medical interventions - not just one or two years but 10 or 20 - are more positive than negative. The Tavistock (followed by adult clinics) has been transitioning children and young people for many years now and this evidence should have been collected and at least some of it could still be collected and needs to be collected before we start doing very risky things to yet more children and young people. The current puberty blocker trial is only funded for 2 years so it's no use.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 27/02/2026 16:54

BonfireLady · 27/02/2026 16:41

@sarahd89 , taking everything you are saying here at face value, I do hope this isn't all coming across as a pile-on. Thank you for being here and for engaging.

As a parent, it's awful hearing your child say they wish they were dead. I've had that experience - my daughter has said it on more than one occasion. I've also had the experience of my daughter kicking and hitting me, at one point pretty much on a daily basis. She wouldn't leave her room for months. She's not an only child, so we also had to think about sibling safety in this mix. In short, it was horrendous and the really intense period lasted months.

Everything began with her asking us for puberty blockers, just before her 13th birthday. She then backtracked a few days later and said it had been a joke. Then asked for them again after a couple of months and it was clear that she was serious. She said she didn't know if she was really a girl and this medicine would give her time to think about that. This was somewhat of a surprise, as I knew nothing about gender identity at the time, but taking a pause seemed reasonable. At this point, we looked at the NHS website which said that the impact on the developing teenage brain is unknown... So we told her she couldn't have them.

I'm intrigued by your reference to the alternative to PBs being "doing nothing". I didn't do nothing. I joined a "trans parents' network" at my work to listen to other parents, I bought a book on gender dysphoria (it's an excellent book, written by Sue and Marcus Evans) and taught myself how to listen to what my daughter was telling me about her distress and how to do a differential diagnosis to unpick and then start to slowly address what might be causing the dysphoria. I felt lost and scared. I didn't know what I was doing and my daughter's mental health was getting worse and worse.

Fast forward to now, nearly 4 years later, and she's going to school, doing all her hobbies again (music, football and more) and (for the most part) thriving, albeit while still in recovery from the trauma of being bullied at school for a sustained period of time. Despite the mostly positive direction of travel, we're still having to follow a watchful waiting approach because she's still really unhappy about her developing body. She would still love to take testosterone if it was safe to do so - she's told me this recently. She knows she's female though and she knows that taking testosterone wouldn't change this. I'm hoping that as she continues to mature, she will continue to reconcile with her body. She's making progress on this. Although she still hates periods - she only gets them occasionally, because she's on the pill - she no longer screams the house down, self-harms or attacks family members when she gets them.

Our stories are obviously different but it feels like there are some similarities and it comes across very strongly how much you love your child. And how hard it's been working out what's best, with so much conflicting information.

I have a few questions. How old was your child when:

  1. PBs were started?
  2. everyone started using she/her pronouns to describe your child
  3. feelings of distress about "gender" were first obvious?

One thing that jumps out at me hugely in terms of difference between your and my experiences, as mums of children who have expressed gender dysphoria, is that when I first heard that PBs had an unknown impact on the developing brain, that became a hard line "no" for me. Not matter what, this was never going to change. By contrast, you said (and I hope I get this right, as I'm paraphrasing from a post of yours earlier) that the science isn't settled yet on brain development impact.

Apologies if this comes across as judgemental, but I genuinely find it astounding that anyone would support their child's brain being experimented upon with unsettled science. I truly hope that your child continues to feel happy and is able to mature into adulthood without cognitive impairment. I can't remember which PP said it, but I would love to know that all the children who had been given PBs for gender dysphoria were now thriving as adults. That would be amazing. But it sadly seems highly unlikely, or there wouldn't be all this reluctance from the adult gender clinics to share the long term outcomes of the GIDS patients.

Edited to add that I'm taking what you're saying here in this thread at face value. After writing my comment above I saw i couple of people commenting that you've been on other threads talking about why males (who identify as women) should be allowed into women's refuges. If that's also true, I would like to clarify that I have no empathy/sympathy for that viewpoint whatsoever. That's a hard no from me.

Edited

Absolutely fantastic post. I’m so sorry you’ve gone through such a tough time. Going through a rough period with my teenage DS (not gender related) at the moment so can empathise.

Also cannot fathom any parent wanting to give an experimental treatment to their otherwise healthy child.

Wish you and your DD the best.

Kirschcherries · 27/02/2026 16:58

Just catching up. So glad Wes is looking at the existing data. It’s the right call.

Swipe left for the next trending thread