Any pathologists here? Using correct sex in post mortem or autopsy

[Whineandcheese]

I have been wondering recently what happens when a person who self-identifies as the opposite sex dies and a post mortem or autopsy is required. Are they identified as their biological sex in the report? And what if they have had surgery? Can anyone enlighten me?

https://www.judiciary.uk/guidance-and-resources/chapter-19-trans-people-and-the-coroners-court/

God, the amount of time expended on this drivel is astonishing:

'40. In respect of a non-binary or gender fluid person, the position is more complicated. There is no definition of ‘sex’ in the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 or in the Registration of Births and Deaths Regulations 1987, and whether ‘non-binary’ is an acceptable category of ‘sex’ on the register of deaths has not been considered by the courts. Case law has however confirmed that the Gender Recognition Panel has no power to issue a non-binary GRC[18] and that ‘sex’ in the Equality Act 2010 is a binary concept[19]. It is therefore likely that if stated, ‘sex’ will need to be expressed as either male or female. However, there appears to be no reason why a coroner could not find and certify that a non-binary or gender-fluid person’s sex was ‘unascertained’ (or leave that entry on the form blank) if the coroner considered that the classification of the deceased person’s sex as being one of the two binary categories was not made out on the evidence.'

So instead of recording 'sex', which is observable, testable, and straightforward, it seems people are supposed to be recorded on a sort of 'hazard your best guess' basis as male, female, or 'unascertained':

'41. Each case must of course be dealt with on its specific facts. Information that may be obtained to assist the coroner (or jury, where applicable) when making determinations about a deceased person’s sex for registration purposes will include:
(i) whether the deceased has a GRC;
(ii) whether there is any evidence of the deceased having had gender re-assignment surgery or taking hormone therapy;
(iii) the name used by the deceased and which they asked others to call them at the time of their death;
(iv) the gender and name revealed by any documentation the deceased recently used (driving licence, staff card, credit card, store card, medical card, passport);
(v) any other evidence that the deceased lived as a gender different from their birth sex (including accounts from others of the deceased’s expressed gender);
(vi) any evidence that the deceased was only temporarily cross-dressing when they died.'

'Never mind the bollocks, this is the gender pistols'

'any evidence that the deceased was only temporarily cross-dressing when they died'

😂

So if Mark dies doing something stupid at his rugby club party while wearing a dress, the coroner doesn't look at his entirely male body and write 'male' on the death certificate. Instead she looks at the dress, rummages through Mark's wallet, finds a driving licence saying Mark and Tesco clubcard saying Mary (from another drunken bet at the rugby club), throws her hands up in confusion and writes 'haven't the foggiest' on the death certificate.

Well I certainly can't see any problems with that system.

I am reminded of the demise of the German General in a tutu who tried to cheer Kaiser Wilhelm up just before WW1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_H%C3%BClsen-Haeseler

On 14 November 1908, Dietrich Graf von Hülsen-Haeseler died of a heart attack while on a hunting trip in honor of the Kaiser. The hunting party was staying at Donaueschingen Castle in Donaueschingen, Baden; the Black Forest country estate of Prince Max von Fürstenberg. During a formal evening function, von Hülsen-Haeseler appeared dressed in the pink tutu and rose wreath of a ballerina, dancing for the Kaiser and his assembled guests

@SerendipityJane 😂I'm sure I saw an episode of Casualty years ago where the wife and kids had gone out, and the dad was prancing about in a dress, heels, wig, the full works and promptly fell down the stairs. Can't remember if he identified as dead or not.

And I am reminded of the mortuary scene in the novel 'Identity Crisis' by Ben Elton!

Drivel, indeed.

It is therefore likely that if stated, ‘sex’ will need to be expressed as either male or female. However, there appears to be no reason why a coroner could not find and certify that a non-binary or gender-fluid person’s sex was ‘unascertained’ (or leave that entry on the form blank) if the coroner considered that the classification of the deceased person’s sex as being one of the two binary categories was not made out on the evidence.

What evidence? The pathologist’s report? The lab’s genetic analysis? Or is this ‘guidance’ suggesting that ephemeral documents falsified according to the holder’s whim hold more weight?

So leave the ‘gender’ field (if such a thing exists) blank and fill the ‘sex’ field accurately.

Coroner ≠ pathologist report. A post mortem may be carried out without the circumstances necessitating an inquest.
Some pathology lab systems are recording gender identity in the sex field but this would lead to issues where the reference ranges for specific tests are sex based.
https://www.rcpath.org/profession/publications/college-bulletin/october-2023/transforming-our-college-and-pathology-practice-together.html
There doesn't appear to be specific autopsy guidance for this circumstance
https://www.rcpath.org/profession/guidelines/autopsy-guidelines-series.html?_gl=1256w8k_upMQ.._gaNDY1NzYxMDg3LjE3NzA5ODc1MTY._ga_HT8YPHYFXZ*czE3NzA5ODc1MTUkbzEkZzEkdDE3NzA5ODc2MjkkajgkbDAkaDA.

This is shades of the NHS policies that state that if a trans person comes in to hospital unconscious or otherwise unable to state their preferred pronouns, you should examine their clothing and hairstyle to determine whether they should be housed with women or with men, and that this should override genitals (I paraphrase somewhat, but really not that much).

I'd like to see that episode of Casualty:
'This is Dietrich von Hülsen-Haeselercome, she's come in with suspected myocardial infarction sustained while dancing....' 😁

Dietrich von Hülsen-Haeselercome

I can't help but wonder if he knew Schnitzel Von Krumm from Donaldsons dairy ?

With the very low bum?

My memory was it was "tum" ?

It was in my mind because Russell Howard and Bridget Christie managed to get 10 minutes out of it recently 😀

Who's up for a bear hunt ?

Oh tum sounds more plausible, now that you mention it 😆

God, the amount of time expended on this drivel is astonishing

But that’s good, isn’t it? That’s the point. The more time and effort the rest of us have to waste on supporting the delusion, the more validated the special people feel. Even when dead, apparently.

I don’t suppose, being dead, that it actually matters

Of course it matters. Data and statistics matter. And for the various reasons sex is recorded, it matters, or they wouldnt record it.

Thanks. So the Obfuscation and Bullshit activists haven't yet reached that sector.

This was 10 years ago but a trans identifying male, that I knew as a friend of a friend, died following a massive stroke. He was only 40 and probably died as a result of the hormones he was taking. I didn't see the pm report, obviously, but I helped his friend to assist his parents
(abroad) to get copies of the death certificate. It definitely said "male" on the certificate.
I don't know if that has changed.

So I don’t know the ins and outs, or the precise terminology. My point was what is considered evidence?

Their starsign ?

🤣