Looking at men differently now I know too much?

[clingfilmed]

In recent years I've seen so much in the news and online about men's abuse and violence towards women. A man who looks totally normal and pleasant and is perhaps in many ways a good man might still be going home and creating fake AI nudes of women he knows or watching extreme porn or abusing his wife or kids or using prostitutes or cam girls or has a fetish that degrades and dehumanises women or is a complete misogynist.

There is a post on the relationships board now where a married man is hoping that just because a mum of his sons friend has been friendly towards him she might fancy him and be up for it.

Then looking at many of the men I know day to day how they talk to and interact with their wives and families is depressing to see, almost like they don't care at all.

I know its not every man, I know some men who I do think are good. I do look back to the rose tinted days of my teens when I would idealise boys and think they were so amazing and now knowing what I do about general trends and some men in particular its quite a disappointment.

This is another reason why I can't understand any woman being comfortable with being "kept". I wouldn't want to make my partner solely responsible for the financial stability of the household unless there was a compelling reason to do so, such as raising our pre-nursery child. It's not very fair to them.

I agree it's a much better situation if both sexes can recognise the individual challenges faced by each other rather than having an "I'm the bigger victim" competition.

The problem is that it's hard to feel empathy for the person working crazy hours when you've swallowed the narrative that they're incredibly privileged to be spending most of their waking moments at work right up until they're a pensioner (I'm not referring to you specifically here).

Exactly.

I think you've seen "earning your own money is empowering" and misinterpreted it as "being overworked is a privilege". They aren't the same thing. I don't think anyone would work long or fixed hours if they had wealth or passive income to live on.

I'm not looking at who's the biggest victim so much as who's the biggest perpetrator.

It's not women weaponising their genitals to terrorise men, is it?

Look, I can't really be arsed with this endless merry go round of 'who has it worse'. Your response is a little like replying to somebody who says "let's agree to disagree" with an "OK, but I'm still right".

The issue with topics like this where people feel so emotive is that if you state an opinion that even slightly deviates from the common narrative people will jump on it with an almost religious fervour. If you refuse to acquiesce you'll then often find yourself being called an MRA/man/etc. It often results in an odd situation where you end up almost championing a cause you're not actually particularly invested in just because you have a more moderate view than the person you're debating it with and you're not prepared to be bullied into submission.

I don't care about men any more than I do about women. I actually agree with feminists on a lot of the issues. However, I'm not solely focused on them and I care about people not just women, even if that sounds a bit corny. It's like the trans threads where people try and paint all trans people as perverts/AGP types. If you dare to state that some trans individuals seem genuinely confused as opposed to having an ulterior motive you'll often be forced to either submit or double down on your statement because for many posters there is no middle ground. Yet looking at the link between autism/gender dysphoria I think it's hard to argue that every confused school age trans individual is indulging some sexual fetish as a primary motive.

You say you're focusing on perpetrators not victims but I'm not sure that's strictly true. You're focusing on male perpetrators rather than male victims because this naturally feeds into the dialogue around female victims. I can't really say any of the many men I know 'weaponise their genitalia'. It's not like they're fashioning makeshift spears from their scrotums lol.

I feel like you're using feminism to further oppress yourself rather than try and empower yourself.

I agree with the latter part of your statement but I still believe that the narrative around working being a privilege makes it harder to see the darker side of being the sole/primary provider.

It's like when people say "Oh, winning the lottery ruined your life did it? Pah, you could always give it all away". Yet it's not hard to see how many of the types of people that gamble heavily might spiral once they lose the stability of their day job and are able to indulge their gambling/drinking habits to the extreme without any barriers.

Gad, please reply to what we actually saying rather than (it feels like?) what it suits your own narrative to think we're saying. I'd wondered if I was being a bit harsh in saying similar to you earlier, as your posts are longer and more detailed than usual, which at first glance does make them seem more thoughtful, too. But if ever anything demonstrated how much you're relying on your prejudices as opposed to our words, it's this:

It's like the trans threads where people try and paint all trans people as perverts/AGP types. If you dare to state that some trans individuals seem genuinely confused as opposed to having an ulterior motive you'll often be forced to either submit or double down on your statement because for many posters there is no middle ground. Yet looking at the link between autism/gender dysphoria I think it's hard to argue that every confused school age trans individual is indulging some sexual fetish as a primary motive.

The "caring about people rather than just women" is similarly infuriating - insulting, even.

I mean, running my eyes down the thread titles right now, I can see in the top 10:

• concerns about the puberty-blocker trial (often founded on the autism link)
• concern for a de-transitioner
• focus on Palestine/Israel
• the tragedy - and, yes, politics - of transwomen murdered in Brazil

That's almost half that disprove your point straight off, right now!

As regards you're "can't be arsed" and "solely focussed" - well, again, the evidence just doesn't stand up; your posts honestly seem a heck of a lot more emotive than many of those to which you're responding.

Could I suggest you maybe take some of what we write and break it down into short quotes of a few lines, they way I do with the titles above, and with some of your own posts, then respond to each little bit as opposed to writing these screeds? Depending on the posts you choose, you may find that we can agree on more than you like to think.

This is a case in point. Nuanced arguments for nuanced issues.

Sorry, somehow missed this. That's more what I meant.

But I find it interesting that, even in your analogy in defence of your argument that being the sole providing husband is an unfair load, and the lunching wife an indulgent privilege...

...You explicitly acknowledge (inadvertently?) the value of "the stability of the day job" and the challenges of living without such "barriers and structures".

There's a big difference between having a job/structured life and between working 80 hours a week.

Regarding your above post where you seem to be trying to police my posting, you seem to be forgetting the overall context of the thread. It's yet another thread whinging about men and that's what you're defending.

For all the 'reasons' people give you'll never see a thread whinging about the vast majority of other demographics that could be seen as problematic. You certainly won't see many complaining about Islam or other ethnic minorities who perpetrate crime at an elevated rate, and if you do people will be throwing around accusations of bigotry. A lot of feminists are just sexists that love to moan about men and have been given a platform to do it.

The fact that many people don't challenge it doesn't mean anything to me as people will also moan about 'terfs' if you suggest that male sex offenders shouldn't be housed with vulnerable women. It's always been pushed mainly by white educated women. Even the much lauded suffragettes were only fighting for female property owners to get the vote. They didn't give a shit about their maidservants.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/2167233/Ten-men-charged-boy-raped-chemsex-party?fbclid=IwdGRjcAP0nLNleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEeu7xYYjVnYyP_sOT5giC7WO1WofN35yL-x9DiDjogx9zmLDp0RcCZR5En5NQ_aem_ah2nF3uQtD_HHdFtPbOSKw
another one they can’t even be trusted around their own children

Mothers are the biggest threat to children though! All these are in the last month or so....

Mother charged with murder, accused of suffocating 4-year-old son: St. Pete Police

www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox13news.com/news/mother-charged-murder-accused-suffocating-4-year-old-son-death-st-pete-police.amp

New Jersey mother arrested in deaths of 2 sons, ages 5 and 7

www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ny.com/amp/post/hillsborough-nj-mother-arrested-deaths-2-sons-ages-5-7/18401696/

Mother sentenced in death of 4-year-old son, dumping child’s remains in shopping bag

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox8live.com/2026/02/06/mother-sentenced-death-4-year-old-son-dumping-childs-remains-shopping-bag/%3foutputType=amp

Mother Charged With Murder in Death of 17-Month-Old Girl in Santa Monica

https://lacounty.gov/2026/01/08/mother-charged-with-murder-in-death-of-17-month-old-girl-in-santa-monica/

Mother shoots, kills daughter during argument over alcohol, authorities say

https://www.kbtx.com/2026/02/04/mother-shoots-kills-daughter-during-argument-over-alcohol-authorities-say/

Mother charged with manslaughter after young son found dead in a trash bag

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox10tv.com/2026/02/06/escambia-county-authorities-search-mother-after-young-son-found-dead-trash-bag/%3foutputType=amp

Mother charged with 1st-degree murder after 10-year-old boy found dead

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mother-charged-10-year-old-boy-dead-barrie9.7035352&ved=2ahUKEwiBvLnhwciSAxXYzgIHHXdlD9o4ChAWegQIMhAB&usg=AOvVaw1zRx7eO-Jt9cl8c8xnCs8y

Mother Is Charged With Murder in Death of 1-Year-Old Son

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/30/nyregion/mother-baby-murder-charged-queens.html

The USA which has a population of 300 million and no maternal mental health care, no paid maternity leave etc.

The most common cause of death to pregnant women in the USA is their partner. So there's that.
https://bmjgroup.com/homicide-is-a-leading-cause-of-death-in-pregnant-women-in-the-us/

How many people do you know/have you known who regularly work(ed) 80 hours a week? I agree that there is a darker side, both to working 80 hours a week and being married to someone who works 80 hours a week, but it doesn't sound like you're speaking from experience in this thread.

Horrible...

Even the much lauded suffragettes were only fighting for female property owners to get the vote. They didn't give a shit about their maidservants.

The suffragettes weren't a monolithic group. Books like Rebel Girls by Jill Liddington are specifically about working class women in Mills etc who agitated for the right to vote. Famous examples would be Lillian Lenton, Kitty Marion, Dora Thewlis.

It is definitely true that the Pankhursts and many in the suffragette establishment were classist to an awful degree. However, even within the Pankhurst family, Sylvia rebelled against this and advocated for working class women to have the right to vote. Annie Kenney also did (the only working class woman to reach a high rank in the WSPU), as did Lady Constance Lytton, among others. Lytton's book Prisons and Prisoners is specifically about her time posing as the working class 'Jane Warton' in Holloway, which unsurprisingly meant she was treated much worse

Incidentally, there's a huge amount of criticism of Islam and Muslim men on MN and FWR specifically. Have you never seen any?? Plenty of feminists, including many from Muslim backgrounds, have criticised Muslim men and Islam, too. Similar for black men : black feminists have been criticising misogyny within the black community since Bell hooks and Alice Walker in the 70s and 80s (and of course there were others before that)

Exactly, a lot of people on FWR do have sympathy for male teens who want to become MTF. Some may even have DSes being driven down that path.

I was referring to one of the quotes above from that mumsnet thread about husband working 80 hours.

I wouldn't work that many hours. I do regularly do 60 hour weeks, though, not including the hour it takes me to get home from city centre. I worked 14 hours last Monday, 13 on Tuesday, and 14 again on Wednesday. With an hour's drive home after each.

That was a particularly bad week but 100% I'd have had an easier few days looking after my goddaughter as I sometimes do. I get paid pretty well but it's not some great privilege being at work. Out in the rain having to always stay focused due to operating and being around heavy machinery/plant vehicles.

So you're making it all up: how awful it is to work 80 hours a week, how wonderful it is to be married to someone who works 80 hours a week, what feminists think. It seems so solipsistic. What's the point?

I don't think that working 80 hours a week is a picnic but I've known many people who did. Jobs like working as an investment banker at a top firm, working at a top law firm, working at a startup, or owning one's own business are often the most coveted jobs, both at uni and within an industry, and they generally require 80 or more hours a week. There must be some upside if people who have much more knowledge than you do about the positions still very much wish they could have those jobs. You only focus on how awful it is for the poor men and how wonderful it is for the ladies who lunch. There are good things and bad things about both positions.

I'm glad you're getting to spend time with your goddaughter.

I have been happily married twice, to two of the loveliest people I’ve ever known-make or female.
I have four fantastic sons and a male best friend.
My issue with men, having done sex work in saunas in between travelling to earn easy cash, when I was 19-21 (I’m now 50) that I know that I know them and they’re dark side too well.
Most of the chaps I met and had sex with for money were loving, decent men - husbands, sons brothers, dads - but some liked younger bodies, big tits, shaven Fannie’s, hated their wives putting weight on, didn’t find their post-kids bodies attractive, wanted dress up, and more sex/sex with other people -largely conventionally attractive sexually available looking younger /fit girls

In one way it gave me a good understanding of men and entering into relationships I had my eyes wide open and it set me in good stead
In another I always had this knowledge in the back of my head and it impact in some ways, as I knew the myth of complete trust was utter bollocks in marriage.
And in terms of men remaining faithful to their spouses I don’t think I ever heard a truer phrase than ‘men are as faithful as their options’

If I seem to be going around the houses a bit it's because I'm talking about my thoughts on feminism in general, as feminism is always the vehicle which is used to justify the constant man bashing.

I thought it had got more extreme in recent years but I realised at some point that it's always been pretty extreme. I think social media just allowed greater coverage. I'll post a few quotes below to illustrate what I'm talking about and you can tell me if you agree with them/think they're perfectly reasonable statements.

These are mostly by well respected feminists, not some fringe nutters. And as feminists always tell us, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem/if innocent men don't want to be tarred with the same brush they need to challenge the sexist men.

And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference.

Susan Griffin

Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.

Catherine Comins

The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.

Sally Miller Gearhart

I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act

Robin Morgan

I think we ought to decide that man-hating is not only respectable but honorable.

Joanna Russ

Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.

Germaine Greer

ALL men keep ALL women in a state of fear

Susan Brownmiller

Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies.

Andrea Dworkin

The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.

Linda Gordon

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage.

Sheila Cronin

The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist.

Ti-Grace Atkinson

When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.

Sheila Jeffrys

If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.

Mary Daly

I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys.

Treena Shapiro

I don't doubt that's true about the men you mention. Neither do I doubt that a lot of women would leave their husbands if said husbands decided to leave their highly paid job for a poorly paid one.

Men have always been more visually driven whilst women value high status males to a greater extent. If you don't believe me then consider whether a really good looking man who was happy working in McDonalds would easily find a glamorous wife. I think a lot of rich guys would happily marry a stunning and personable female working in such a job.