Women’s only services

[rosemole]

I’ve often wondered how women providing services for other women such as hairdressing, massage, nails, wedding dresses, bra fittings, etc. cope with the possibility that a bloke can rock up and demand to be served.

If you are one of these service providers, how do you manage? Have you been able to successfully sideswipe a man in these circumstances?

I'm very gender critical but can't see how services such as hairdressing, manicures and massage should or could be single sex.

Hairdressers and manicure technicians just have to get on with it as theirs no difference between mens head hair and nails vs women head hair and nails.
When it comes to intimate waxing it would depend on whether you're trained to wax the male anatomy or not.
Not sure about masages

Maybe I haven’t been clear: I don’t mean a man who knows he’s a man. I mean a trans identifying male potentially using these predominantly female services as a way to force women to participate unwillingly in his fetish.

Anyone with hair can and do go to hairdressers and for manicures they are not single sex facilities.
Intimate waxing can only be done by someone trained for female and/or male anatomy, and if someone doesn't want to Waxing 1 particular sex they just don't bother training to wax that sex
Edited for auto correct typo

Do not forget the Canadian um.. self important ‘fragrant person’ who attempted to sue female waxing therapists for refusing to wax his/ ‘her’ genitals? (The training is different depending on the sex of the person you are waxing.)

He/‘her’ lost.

There's a Turkish-style barber five minutes walk from me that only cuts men's and boys' hair.

Jonathan "Jessica Simpson" Yaniv.

That was the bloke who peaked me. A real WTF moment.

I'm a massage therapist. We can refuse to massage men as the Equality Act has some exemptions when it comes to physical touch services. As far as men claiming to be women, I guess the recent Supreme court ruling would apply as trans women are still biologically men?

Yes, so-called trans women are, in law, (and in reality), biological men.

Correct. ‘Jessica’ is still litigating on a regular basis.

I wish I could unsee the picture of that person in the purple frock….

Yes, women hairdressers and masseuses can legally only accept women (biological) clients in certain circumstances, provided they can objectively justify it under the Equality Act 2010

For Masseuses (Massage Therapists)

It is generally lawful for a female masseuse to refuse male clients, especially when the service involves physical contact, for reasons of privacy, decency, or the therapist's safety. The Equality Act 2010 includes exceptions for single-sex services where:

• The services may involve physical contact between a user and someone else, and that other person (the therapist) might reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.
• The restriction is a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim". Examples cited in the Act's explanatory notes include a female masseuse operating her own business from her home who only accepts female clients because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

For Hairdressers

The situation is less clear-cut for standard hairdressing services, which generally do not involve the same level of intimate physical contact or privacy concerns as massages.

• Direct discrimination is always unlawful: A salon cannot refuse to cut a woman's hair simply because she is a woman, or a man's hair simply because he is a man.
• The law applies to services based on the type of service, not the client's gender.
• However, exceptions may apply if a service is typically used by only one sex and it is impracticable to provide it to the other, or if the restriction is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (e.g., a specific cultural or religious need that the service is tailored for). In general, standard haircuts must be available to all.

Key Considerations

• Objective Justification: Any refusal of service must be objectively justified by a clear, reasonable, and legitimate reason related to one of the exceptions in the Equality Act, not just personal preference or a blanket policy.
• Transgender Clients: The law surrounding single-sex services and transgender people is complex. Service providers can exclude a trans person (even with a Gender Recognition Certificate) if the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, balancing the impact on all service users. The recent Supreme Court ruling clarifies that "sex" in the Equality Act refers to biological sex in this context.
• Good Practice: Businesses are advised to have clear equality policies and train staff to avoid unlawful discrimination. The focus should be on the service provided, time taken, and skill required, rather than the client's gender.

AI synopsis.
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I think part of the problem is the one that is now universal. Whereas in the past no one would question women providing women only services in areas of work like this.

But the trans narrative has been so widely written about as being the new norm, because so many are captured, many now have doubts or dont feel confident is asserting their right to provide women (biological) only services.

I’d have been very tempted to perform the waxing and accidentally spill hot wax all over the fragrant persons appendage..

Il never forget going in my local nail salon and having to sit opposite a (hairy, sweaty looking) man who came in and wanted a pedicure. He didn’t have time for the spa bath and just wanted his polish taking off and re applying 🤔

Cue me having to sit across from his gross, hairy trotters held aloft on the manicurists lap whilst she did her work ( he had pink, sparkly nail polish re-applied in case you’re interested)

She did have a mask and gloves on but I was boaking. I couldn’t even deal with women’s feet but men’s? 🤮

I don't go for a manicure without washing my hands first. Surely you'd wash your feet and change your socks before leaving the house for a pedi?

I suspect some kind of fetish about forcing women to handle sweaty feet.

I think he had some wins at first. He only started losing when he pushed it too far.

JY managed to obtain a gag order so his name was kept out of the press. Main problem is JY wishes to be the centre of attention.

Men, no matter who they think they are, should accept that reality is not kind.

Jessica Yaniv, or whatever he calls himself now, was recently in the news again for having been served with some kind of 'cease and desist' letter because he keeps phoning the emergency services to get him out of the bath.

Specifying single sex services is legal in many circumstances. I’m more interested in the practicalities of how this can be managed/enforced by individuals in the moment.

Say you’re an individual running a mindfulness retreat, or yoga class or something similar where it’s common for people to prefer a single sex option. The event is advertised as being for ‘women only’ so participants will reasonably (and since FWS, legally) expect it to be single sex.

Someone books under a typically female name but when they arrive it’s obvious they are male.

How do you handle this when you’re just there by yourself at the start of the session/day/weekend?

What do you say to this person? What happens if you ask and they simply insist that they are a woman?

As far as I saw, the EHRC guidance mainly focused on procedures for organisations.

If there’s a management structure, HR dept or security team you can expect (hope for) some sort of protocol for passing the question up to someone else. But it’s far harder, more personal and potentially distressing if you’re on your own with no option to appeal to a ‘higher authority’.

Not sure if there’s any guidance for this but it’s much needed.

I get the feeling that he might just enjoy that 🤮

The expectation is that you say sorry this is a single sex service for biological women only, and they say oh ok sorry I didn't realise and leave.
However in reality we know that many will argue the point and claim to be a biological woman (Dr Upton) and kick off and/or sue (yani) and the poor woman is left dealing with an angry man and a crt case plus the TRA pile on (both vancouver rape crisis and bieras place).
The pattern of behaviour from these men will continue until the police and courts start to punish them and businesses start to stand up to them.

One local driving instructor near us is Muslim and he will only accept male clients because he won’t be alone in a private space with a woman not from his family. So he offers a single sex service on the basis of religion. His wife drives so he’s not against teaching women to drive - just to make that clear.

I strongly suspect that a man entering one of our local Muslim women’s beauticians would also be refused even if it were for just nails or hair for similar reasons.

Why then would I run into trouble (if I were a hairdresser) if I refused a trans identifying male as a client on the basis that I don’t believe in their secular religion of Gender Identity/find woman-face horribly offensive?

ETA Would a black Afro-hairdresser be forced to serve a white customer who arrived “blacked up”?

Most barbers refuse to cut women's hair, always have done so and continue to do so.

They never have to justify why, it's just 'We don't do women's hair', end of.

It's interesting that it becomes an issue when it's the other way round, men wanting to avail of traditionally female services.

I would feel very uncomfortable, if working as a hairdresser in a women's salon, in having to stand so close to a man, in order to cut his hair. The accidental movement of his arm against me, or the thought of knowing his eyes would be fixed on any particular part of me, as I stood in front of him at such close range, is enough for me to not want to cut a man's hair.

The same goes for giving massages. Even more so, as usually you would be the only two people in the room.

In fact, I could think of a number of reasons why I wouldn't want to be involved in offering any of the services the OP mentioned (to men). Mainly because I know so many men cannot (or simply do not want to) control themselves, either in their actions or words, toward women.

Then there's the obvious thing where he could be making me participate in his fetish, or him glowing in the knowledge that he would be making women feel uncomfortable, just by him being there in an otherwise female environment.

Boundary bashing...

Therefore, I wouldn't want to put myself in those situations.

@DOBARDAN @Rollstar
that’s exactly what I meant - the fact that it makes you feel uncomfortable and that even if you can now legally state women only (in theory), it’s like sending personal invitations to these boundary transgressing fetishists. It certainly puts me off working in any of these areas. I know it shouldn’t, as women should not have to feel intimidated.

It also puts me off going to any supposed female only space, because you just know a man will try it on. There is a women’s circle near me I wanted to try but I can’t face the possibility that they may allow men in.