Germany's own 'Pelicot' case

[Imnobody4]

A pitiful sentence.

A German man has been jailed for repeatedly drugging and raping his wife after a trial that has been likened to the Gisèle Pelicot case in France.
A court in Aachen in the west of Germany sentenced him to eight and a half years in prison, less than the ten-year sentence requested by the state prosecutor.
Investigative journalists from the outlet STRG F discovered a network of Telegram channels in which users exchanged detailed instructions about how to drug and rape women. One of the channels they discovered contained the footage uploaded by P, which prosecutors estimate may have been viewed thousands of times.

www.thetimes.com/article/2df3806a-c1a5-4ace-964a-85b5afcb5bdc?shareToken=b73209fa22d5e0a68bd4d6ca6950efbc

I saw this story in Swindon and came here to look for a thread – only to find this one about the man in Germany.

Gisèle formerly Pelicot has lifted the lid on all this through her courage. I fear we're going to hear of an awful lot more cases.

Though I'm glad that, since it's clearly been happening, women are feeling able to report it and the men are being prosecuted.

But oh dear god.

Loggerhead sea turtles will also rape human divers, which can be fatal if the SCUBA gets detached in the process.

That's terrible. It seems one documented instant often noted is by Birute Galdikas, the orangutan expert who was present when a male orangutan sexually assaulted the team cook. 😢 She did note that in this case, the male had been raised by humans so probably saw them as he would other orangutans, as well as lacking instinctive fear. Of course this doesn't make this horrible fact of male primate behaviour Amy better....

Very disturbing. That article has several examples of men being assaulted- were the animals not realising the sex of the person? Or frustrated, or what? In any case, an unpleasant thing to find out but people should be aware....

Thanks, will look into that. I was thinking about the group activity. And it makes that African "it's only human" guy even more wrong. But how on earth did the researchers get raped? Clothes and basic physiology would make it difficult.
1st link didn't work. 2nd only gives abstract.

Here's an Open Library copy of The Dark Side of Man, by the Jane Goodall protege.

https://archive.org/details/darksideofmantra00ghig

And an Open Library copy of Demonic Males.

https://archive.org/details/demonicmalesapes00wran

If you have a strong stomach, the account of the orangutan sexually assaulting the cook is on page 294 of Birute Galdikas' memoir. She witnessed it herself. As I said, she notes this particular orangutan, 'Gundul', was raised by humans so probably saw them as like other orangutans, but otoh she said locals had earlier told her stories of wild orangutans assaulting women, so probably it's not wholly unknown in ordinary ones. 😢

https://archive.org/details/reflectionsofede00biru/page/294/mode/1up?q=Gundul

Physiology - presumably not impossible? I mean, the accounts pp linked were about marine animals mainly but assault still apparently happened in some cases. And ofc, vice versa, humans, usually male humans, have been known to assault animals...

"Not all men" isn't a particularly frequent Mumsnet response; it's come up this time in reply to an unusually provocative comment by one poster.

Yup, I've had a disturbing pm reading parts of Demonic Males, and some Reddit thread too, which makes me think the people subscribing to that have that sort of mind. Referencing men raping non-humans, which isn't something which is not known. As the orang and the cook case refers to it being observed it seems very odd. Indonesian women would be wearing not so obstructive clothing, but what the hell were the observers doing? I know a male orang is big, but a research place would surely have access to tranquiliser darts. The only other case cited is of Julia Roberts, and was stopped. Not convinced of that, but it obviously is general among primates, not only great apes, within their species.

In the meantime, I have been running through memory of men I have known of well enough to form an opinion about. Code C casually sexist but trustworthy, D decent, A avoid being alone with, W wrong un.
DCDCCCDDDDCDCDDDCACCADWDDDDDW
W1 colleague, thought ok but found through a police operation to have child porn.
W2 Fred West, worked on my sister's house
Not exhaustive as I left out the OU contingent, staff mostly D, students a mix of D and C, surprisingly few C for the courses I did, but one A who had to be sent home for bothering another woman. But I still think quite a lot of men are OK, though you can't initially tell who, unless their behaviour is apish, like the old man drooling over me changing on the beach at Clacton, or the openly predatory one on the seafront at Dover - didn't care who saw him. He isn't up there, only just remembered him, a definite W.
I've obviously been lucky.

Re the Galdikas sexual assault : I'll need to check details of what bases are like but for now I think Grok's reply is fairly reasonable (though ofc you should always check AI)

'Galdikas was present and immediately intervened: she called for help, physically fought Gundul with all her strength, beat him with her fists, and even tried to ram a fist down his throat to stop him.
Despite her efforts (and Gundul not fighting back aggressively against her), her blows had no effect. Adult male orangutans are extraordinarily powerful — several times stronger than humans. There's no mention in her account (or secondary sources discussing it) of tranquilizer darts being readily available or used — this was a remote jungle research/rehabilitation camp in the 1970s–1980s, not a modern zoo with dart guns on hand for emergencies. Such equipment isn't standard for field primatology sites focused on observation.'

The cook asked Galdikas to stop hitting the orang as she thought otherwise he might've injured them. Similar reaction to many victims of human males...but definitely in a camp you'd think there'd be better safety with multiple people around. This tool place in 70s or 80s, hopefully things are safer now, especially for locals helping..

Re Demonic Males, it is a highly disturbing book and I would read it with some caution. Ditto The Dark Side of Man. There are reviews arguing both are oversimplified and neglect a lot. I recommended them because they make genuinely useful points but they shouldn't be read as extremely reliable.

Here's a balanced review in a biology journal.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20080513092541/www.tc.umn.edu/~regal001/demonic.htm

I do think it's good that both books are written by men. An awful lot of evopsych books seem like men finding excuses to be misogynist: 'men want to cheat, let's be polygamous', 'men can't help being hypergynous (chasing younger women),' etc These 2 books are essentially arguing similar to the horrible A Natural History of Rape re biological roots of male sexual violence, but they're not recommending women should restrict themselves as the authors of that book did : ( recommended women should consider 'the biological causes of rape when making decisions about dress, appearance, and social activities.')

recommended women should consider 'the biological causes of rape when making decisions about dress, appearance, and social activities.'

In that case, I'd recommend that women consider which sex class commits the raping when decided whether or not to carry male foetuses to term. Why should 51% of the population lock themselves away because the other 49% can't keep each other in line? Get rid of the problematic 49%, problem solved.

I have left out the one W-squared I had edited out of memory, I didn't know him, but my Mum and a group of older women knew his wife. About 30 years ago, can't cite any of the shocking details, apart from him bamboozling many people that he was a lovely bloke. He did have his mates in to rape her, undrugged, which is when she broke free. Thinking back, he was worse than West. Apart from not murdering his victims. How the hell I forgot him I can't imagine. And out of respect for her, now happy, I can't even say where those bloody mates are. Or where they aren't.