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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we extremist and fanatical?

598 replies

RogueFemale · 19/12/2025 20:06

We, as in gender critical/sex realist women.

I saw an old schoolfriend today, to exchange Christmas gifts over tea and biscuits. She's highly educated and intelligent, v. firmly feminist (in the sense of anti-patriarchy, and wanting women to use Ms not Miss or Mrs). Has travelled widely, knows a lot about other cultures etc.

Politics came up and I mentioned Phillipson blocking the ECHR guidance, and how I wasn't happy about it.

Turns out she thinks my gender critical views are extremist and fanatical. Actual words. I knew already she was inclined to the 'be kind' end of the spectrum, and that we disagreed, but this was new - that I'm an extremist.

That I was being unkind and TiM had a right to exist (I said of course they do, but...). That I should keep my views to myself, if I didn't want to be regarded as a nasty person, essentially.

I said, 'you don't understand'. She was having none of it, said she understands very well, and how there's been gender fluidity since time began. (And these poor TiM have nowhere to pee if they can't go in the ladies, as they'll get abused if they go in the mens).

But she really doesn't understand what is happening now.

I tried to tell her about autogynophilia, about how TiM have been attacking women who protest, the pattern these men have of abuse convictions, same as all men, etc. I said I could send her stuff to prove my points, she said, please don't.

Just a bit depressed to be told by an old friend that I'm a fanatical extremist weirdo, really.

OP posts:
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RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 22:44

YourBreezyBiscuit · 19/12/2025 20:34

OP doesn't have to listen, she's just as entitled to say she doesn't want to hear it.

But, OP is the one who bought the topic up, then when told by her friend that they didn't want to hear it, she carried on and wanted to prove her point.

Her friend neither bought the topic up or felt the need to prove her point, so OP is not being made to listen to anything at all, other than the statement "I don't like your views so please stop espousing them at me".

True enough, though it was more harshly expressed -, but it's strange when the friend claims to be a firm believer in feminism and women's rights.

OP posts:
RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 22:58

ScrollingLeaves · 19/12/2025 22:38

Highly educated does not mean she is able to think for herself. Think of the bullying and cancelling by women at Cambridge University of women who just even read books such as Helen Joyce’s. Your friend has this pack mentality.
(There has been a thread about Cambridge and a new brave group if you haven’t seen it.)

Yes I know about those plucky girls at Cambridge.

OP posts:
RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 22:59

FallenSloppyDead2 · 19/12/2025 22:55

@RogueFemale My friend, though, really is an independent thinker

Why do you think this, OP? Has she deviated from her group's orthodoxies on other topics?

Yes.

OP posts:
RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 23:06

Thelnebriati · 20/12/2025 12:10

Its astonishingly rude to call a friend an extremist fanatic to their face; why would you try to change her mind? She thinks she's better than you. Don't go chasing after her with evidence, its a power play from an authoritarian who looks down her nose at you. She's a nasty piece of work and doesn't deserve anything from you.

I know she thinks she's better - she is 'eminent'. But thank you for saying how rude it was. I was so shocked by it I'm still not sure. A good friend, - but telling me I'm a fanatic and extremist??

OP posts:
Catiette · 20/12/2025 23:13

RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 23:06

I know she thinks she's better - she is 'eminent'. But thank you for saying how rude it was. I was so shocked by it I'm still not sure. A good friend, - but telling me I'm a fanatic and extremist??

Methinks your friend doth protest too much. AKA DARVO, perhaps.

I mean, her words were unusually extreme(ist) - and that itself belies a certain fanaticism.

Hyperbole is central to the movement, repeated so often it becomes a kind of truth. It's one of the things I notice on Reddit - how extraordinarily extreme the language and claims there are, especially in comparison to here. Ref. eg. the suicide myth - and Chase Strangio's acknowledgement in court that it's just not supported by the evidence.

Like Arabella said upthread, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence alternative expressions of absolute moral certitude.

crumpetswithcheeze · 20/12/2025 23:27

Just because someone is highly educated, doesn’t mean they’re intelligent. She sounds like a twat to me.

RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 23:42

crumpetswithcheeze · 20/12/2025 23:27

Just because someone is highly educated, doesn’t mean they’re intelligent. She sounds like a twat to me.

Up to now, a good friend. I don't know now. I would never have behaved this way towards her in the opposite/reverse situation.

OP posts:
Lovelyview · 21/12/2025 00:26

RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 23:42

Up to now, a good friend. I don't know now. I would never have behaved this way towards her in the opposite/reverse situation.

Has she got a teenage daughter?

Justme56 · 21/12/2025 07:14

I think friends can disagree on all sorts of subjects but it’s a real eye opener when their reaction resorts to name calling. I recall someone once saying if you had a real crisis in your life do you think the friend would be there for you, knowing what you know about them now? If not it’s best to walk away.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2025 08:45

Waitwhat23 · 20/12/2025 18:06

And let's face it. It wouldn't have made the slighest bit of difference if women had objected in the sweetest, kindest, trill singing away to small children and animal voices. It's the no which pisses entitled men off - it doesn't matter how it's couched. Entitled men just see it as the women being defective support humans.

This.

Unfortunately.

If someone doesn't like what a woman says they will find a way to discredit her based on her personally. A man is much more likely to be rebuked on the basis of his actual arguments.

GCScot · 21/12/2025 10:59

BonfireLady · 20/12/2025 07:23

Perhaps your friend feels saying TWAM is like criticising Islam or Judaism: dangerous waters.

I think this is the case for many people.

The idea that TWAW is a main tenet of the belief that everyone has a gender identity. Saying TWAM is on par with saying that "god doesn't exist" or "Allah doesn't exist". That's before you get into the details of whether or not burkas are reasonable or any other discussion about religion.

The problem with gender identity belief is that saying "I don't believe that everyone has a gender identity" should be a completely palatable thing to say. We can say "I don't believe in god" or "I don't believe in Allah" without any issues. Muslims don't expect every woman in the UK to wear a burka because there's an unspoken acceptance that it's OK for some people not to share the same core belief (in Allah) as you do, so it would be unreasonable to force them to follow any of its practices. Obviously there are some Muslims who do think it should be enforced, just as it is in Afghanistan, but that's nowhere near to ever being the majority view in the UK. Also, not every Muslim supports wearing burkas.

Instead, with gender identity belief we're all forced and coerced into either actively embracing and following all of its practices or being declared bigots. Given people lose their jobs over this, I can understand the reluctance to be seen as a heretic. But unfortunately this reluctance does stifle critical thinking.

If pushed, most people would probably say that TW don't belong in women's sports, just as most people would probably say that women shouldn't be forced to wear burkas. Even then, I think many of those people wouldn't want to say TWAM (or Allah doesn't exist), even if they did believe that. So yes, for many people it's dangerous waters.

Edited

Totally agree with the religion analogy.

It's important to distinguish between a) being prejudiced/discriminating against a group with a protected characteristic and b) not sharing the group's beliefs. The first is illegal under the Equality Act, the second is not. And the rights of a trans person are equivalent to that of a religious person: just as it's not Islamaphobic to not believe in the tenets of Islam, it's also not transphobic not to believe in gender ideology.

ArabellaSaurus · 21/12/2025 11:16

'It's important to distinguish between a) being prejudiced/discriminating against a group with a protected characteristic and b) not sharing the group's beliefs. The first is illegal under the Equality Act, '

Only if you're a service provider.

KitWyn · 21/12/2025 11:45

Lovelyview · 21/12/2025 00:26

Has she got a teenage daughter?

I agree your 'friend' is very likely to have a child, (her own, a sibling's or best friend's) who is 'trans'.

So she's reacting angrily and instinctively to protect a vulnerable child. Most children identifying as trans are already suffering with issues such as autism or bullying, or may be worried about being gay/lesbian. In some cases it can be seen as a way to escape their childhood sexual abuse.

Your friend isn't rational or reasonable in her response. Partly as she is in protective mother mode. And because, deep down, she knows she is making a terrible mistake.

Gender identity theory is garbage. It can't stand up to the gentlest of probing. Stonewall pushed 'No Debate!' so very hard because applying science, need for evidence and rational thinking, quickly exposes it as silly, self-indulgent nonsense and as a predatory men's rights movement.

In time it will become very obvious to her that she's wholly and horribly wrong. That child is likely being encouraged to make life-changing choices damaging his or her ability to be happy & thrive as an adult. She'll have to live with the eventual inescapable guilt.

However unhappy you are because of her rudeness that day, she will be much, much more miserable. Having to deal with the knowledge of her stupidity and her lengthy betrayal of a vulnerable child she loves.

I'd mentally cross her off my friends list. And very sincerely (but silently) wish her, and the trans child, can find their way back to science, solid evidence and a rational long-term happiness.

Then I'd try to not give her another thought. Nothing useful I can do here. Not my circus, not my clowns.

Justme56 · 21/12/2025 11:56

I can sort of understand the religious analogy but part of me finds it difficult too. Only because it’s more like redefining a religion (a woman is an adult human female) to something completely different (eg a woman is defined by gender identity). It’s like saying Christianity is a belief in God (or Jesus etc), but now saying it’s actually a belief in something completely different. It’s not a new religion is like redefining a current one. I think that is a big part of the issue.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 21/12/2025 12:31

KitWyn · 21/12/2025 11:45

I agree your 'friend' is very likely to have a child, (her own, a sibling's or best friend's) who is 'trans'.

So she's reacting angrily and instinctively to protect a vulnerable child. Most children identifying as trans are already suffering with issues such as autism or bullying, or may be worried about being gay/lesbian. In some cases it can be seen as a way to escape their childhood sexual abuse.

Your friend isn't rational or reasonable in her response. Partly as she is in protective mother mode. And because, deep down, she knows she is making a terrible mistake.

Gender identity theory is garbage. It can't stand up to the gentlest of probing. Stonewall pushed 'No Debate!' so very hard because applying science, need for evidence and rational thinking, quickly exposes it as silly, self-indulgent nonsense and as a predatory men's rights movement.

In time it will become very obvious to her that she's wholly and horribly wrong. That child is likely being encouraged to make life-changing choices damaging his or her ability to be happy & thrive as an adult. She'll have to live with the eventual inescapable guilt.

However unhappy you are because of her rudeness that day, she will be much, much more miserable. Having to deal with the knowledge of her stupidity and her lengthy betrayal of a vulnerable child she loves.

I'd mentally cross her off my friends list. And very sincerely (but silently) wish her, and the trans child, can find their way back to science, solid evidence and a rational long-term happiness.

Then I'd try to not give her another thought. Nothing useful I can do here. Not my circus, not my clowns.

Edited

This.

It is very difficult for someone who has hitched their wagon to that star in a lot of beliefs about how it reflects on them and how it makes them feel about themselves, with that misleading impression it's lovely and noble and the actions of the social rescuer etc etc. Once they start seeing the grime and the realities it throws their balance on everything.

You often see it lately with activists getting upset when it is pointed out that women who want mixed sex spaces are happy to undress with random men. It's too stark. It's too blunt. That's reality not nicely and comfortably fogged, and dusted with fairy dust and naice beliefs. Its a very unpalatable truth and they will try to argue desperately that no, that's not what they mean.... but they do. They just don't want to look it in the eye while inflicting it on women less powerful and privileged than themselves for their social capital and pats.

If you made Philipson stand and look you in the eye and explain why she believes that no woman should be allowed a single sex space, she couldn't do it. She lacks the guts, she would argue desperately that this is not what she believes, but it is. It's exactly what she believes and wants to happen, she just wants it to happen where she doesn't have to look or be affected, so she can feel comfortably nice and right. That can happen to lesser women, in places she doesn't go, and hopefully those women and everyone else can be hushed up from mentioning it or showing evidence of it.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 21/12/2025 12:33

Although to be honest at this point I wouldn't believe Philipson or any other member of that party to tell me the time, never mind have any faith that what their mouth was currently saying was the truth or reflected in any way an actual belief or value, or that it wouldn't be entirely contradicted by what they said and did in the subsequent 30 seconds.

ViolaPlains · 21/12/2025 12:41

We are neither. I cannot understand women who I’d previously thought of as feminists who are now totally in thrall to the trans cult. What I find interesting is that the ones most in thrall are very vociferous atheists - it’s as if it’s their version of religion.

Brefugee · 21/12/2025 13:08

My point is that there are times when it is not reasoned discussion, and it goes too far

in other words: change your language, be kind etc?

That is a bit hard when you are constantly being told things like "die in a fat fire" and the rest of the absolutely vile language TRAs use towards women who say that men remain men no matter what they self identify as.

As for OPs dilemma? I have friends i love dearly with whom i disagree on TWAW. Most don't know i disagree with them on it because i don't talk about it. I am sure they assume i am as fully on board as they are. One or two know what i think, and at least one is infuriating in telling me that the vicious language coming from GC women or even me is vile. It is hyperbole, because all i have said to that particular person is that i am fine for people to self identify and wear what they like or "live as a woman" (whatever that is) but they haven't changed sex and women and men deserve to have single sex spaces.

Brefugee · 21/12/2025 13:18

RogueFemale · 20/12/2025 23:06

I know she thinks she's better - she is 'eminent'. But thank you for saying how rude it was. I was so shocked by it I'm still not sure. A good friend, - but telling me I'm a fanatic and extremist??

frankly? she is an insufferable bore who is so far up her own arse you should probably pull back a bit.

And she called you an extremist to your face, won't let you even give your opinion?
What does she do that enhances your life? not much, I'd guess.

OnAShooglyPeg · 21/12/2025 13:18

Brefugee · 21/12/2025 13:08

My point is that there are times when it is not reasoned discussion, and it goes too far

in other words: change your language, be kind etc?

That is a bit hard when you are constantly being told things like "die in a fat fire" and the rest of the absolutely vile language TRAs use towards women who say that men remain men no matter what they self identify as.

As for OPs dilemma? I have friends i love dearly with whom i disagree on TWAW. Most don't know i disagree with them on it because i don't talk about it. I am sure they assume i am as fully on board as they are. One or two know what i think, and at least one is infuriating in telling me that the vicious language coming from GC women or even me is vile. It is hyperbole, because all i have said to that particular person is that i am fine for people to self identify and wear what they like or "live as a woman" (whatever that is) but they haven't changed sex and women and men deserve to have single sex spaces.

No. To repeat: At no point have I suggested anyone should Be Kind. I'm all for free speech and almost never report posts. Sometimes, I think the discussion goes too far and ends up close to becoming a personal attack. Sometimes, it comes across like if you are disagreeing, then you aren't GC. There's then what can amount to a pile on of other posters reiterating what it means to be GC, when there was never any dispute about that.

It is possible to have robust, reasoned debate without needing to pussyfoot around in a Be Kind manner or resorting to personal attacks. This is particularly important when engaging with someone who has yet to peak and is still within the #BeKind bubble. Otherwise, you push them away.

Brefugee · 21/12/2025 13:21

those were your literal words. What did you mean by "My point is that there are times when it is not reasoned discussion, and it goes too far"

OPs friend called her an extremist to her face. Why should OP not react with equally robust language? should she just giggle behind her hand and agree?

ETA: you are tone policing. And i have no truck with that. There are occasions when you have to say "shut the fuck up, twat" or words to that effect.

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 21/12/2025 13:28

'it goes too far' -

It was too blunt.

It was more honest than was comfortable.

It was not hidden behind figleaves of narrative and linguistics that spin the meaning in a palatable direction.

It knocked against the assumed boundaries that have been so very firmly set for women, about what they may say, and what they may perceive and what they may believe, to manage the narrative that protects this agenda and use of women by this group of men.

It may be shocking when you see another woman do it, but notice why and how you're shocked and what beliefs of yours that it's rattling. I'll bet one is 'you're not allowed to say that!' Why aren't you allowed to say that? Why has that been made unsayable? Did it protect and support women, or even both sexes impartially, or did it silence women to be more conveniently used by men?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/12/2025 13:35

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 21/12/2025 12:31

This.

It is very difficult for someone who has hitched their wagon to that star in a lot of beliefs about how it reflects on them and how it makes them feel about themselves, with that misleading impression it's lovely and noble and the actions of the social rescuer etc etc. Once they start seeing the grime and the realities it throws their balance on everything.

You often see it lately with activists getting upset when it is pointed out that women who want mixed sex spaces are happy to undress with random men. It's too stark. It's too blunt. That's reality not nicely and comfortably fogged, and dusted with fairy dust and naice beliefs. Its a very unpalatable truth and they will try to argue desperately that no, that's not what they mean.... but they do. They just don't want to look it in the eye while inflicting it on women less powerful and privileged than themselves for their social capital and pats.

If you made Philipson stand and look you in the eye and explain why she believes that no woman should be allowed a single sex space, she couldn't do it. She lacks the guts, she would argue desperately that this is not what she believes, but it is. It's exactly what she believes and wants to happen, she just wants it to happen where she doesn't have to look or be affected, so she can feel comfortably nice and right. That can happen to lesser women, in places she doesn't go, and hopefully those women and everyone else can be hushed up from mentioning it or showing evidence of it.

Great post. The consequences of all this are dangerous to women. But pointing it out brings censure on women for not being kind in how we speak. We're here because everyone adopted a gentle tone for far too long. Listened to those chastising us for being disrespectful, failed to call out nonsense arguments & tiptoed round views that enable sex offenders, predators, bullies to thrive.

I recall that outraged poster who, when it was pointed out that advocating for men in women's changing rooms meant that she must be comfortable undressing in front of random men, actually accused posters of being sexually abusive 😂. Frantic not to face the real consequences of her views - just as BP is.

If posters want to simper, be kind and pretend to value predatory beliefs - that's their call. But after 10 years of all this, I'm over it. I'll try to post within the guidelines but will no longer pretend that beliefs that harm children, women & society at large are WORIADS.

EasternStandard · 21/12/2025 15:20

Brefugee · 21/12/2025 13:18

frankly? she is an insufferable bore who is so far up her own arse you should probably pull back a bit.

And she called you an extremist to your face, won't let you even give your opinion?
What does she do that enhances your life? not much, I'd guess.

Yep I don’t see why she gets to insult from some high horse position based on lies.

ArabellaSaurus · 21/12/2025 15:28

Women have spent over ten years fighting to ensure their rights are retained, and to try to ensure that children are not given unevidenced medical treatment.

We have been called every name under the sun. A woman entering this debate under her real name can normally expect: rape, death threats, job loss, family estrangement, friends loss, sued, pilloried, cancelled, banned, doxxed, harassed, assaulted.

So. It's 2025.

Cass Report largely backed up what we'd been saying.

'there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions'

Supreme Court judgement backed up what we'd been saying.

'The meaning of the terms “sex”, “man” and “woman” in the EA 2010 is biological and not certificated sex.'

The Census backed up what we'd been saying

'the gender identity estimates from Census 2021 are no longer accredited official statistics'

The Prescott Memo backed up what we'd been saying:

'stories raising difficult questions about the ‘trans agenda’ were ignored even if they had been widely taken up and discussed across other media outlets.
There was also a constant drip-feed of one-sided stories, usually news features, celebrating the trans experience without adequate balance or objectivity.'

We achieved this despite and because of being relentlessly insulted, impugned, maligned, mocked, threatened, slurred, cancelled, called out, sneered at, arrested, NCHI'd, shunned, tutted at, criticised, called 'hyenas' 'vipers' 'bigots' 'bitches' 'mean' 'nasty' 'extremists' etc.

And now we're getting chastised for 'going too far'?

Let me clear my throat.

(actual refs)

<a class="break-all" href="https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20250310143933/cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20250310143933/cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

https://supremecourt.uk/cases/judgments/uksc-2024-0042

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/methodologies/sexualorientationandgenderidentityqualityinformationforcensus2021

https://archive.ph/tFzfZ

Sexual orientation and gender identity quality information for Census 2021 - Office for National Statistics

Known quality information affecting sexual orientation and gender identity data from Census 2021 in England and Wales to help users correctly interpret the statistics.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/methodologies/sexualorientationandgenderidentityqualityinformationforcensus2021