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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maternity outcomes vs gender affirming surgery outcomes

46 replies

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 09:52

Just rambling my thoughts along and I can’t understand why women are generally refused/discouraged from cesareans on the grounds that the health outcomes are worse than natural childbirth, but people with healthy bodies are given gender affirming surgery which commonly has complications.

And it can’t be on the grounds of mental health implications when traumatic birth experiences leave huge numbers of women with life long PTSD and post natal depression sometimes leading to suicide.

It seems like such a double standard.

OP posts:
DrBlackbird · 18/12/2025 14:21

MaryPaul · 18/12/2025 14:19

Didn't expect to see all the terfs come out of the woods on this, sad lives you must lead chasing ghosts

You’re surprised that on the Feminism: Sex and gender discussions board, that women who are sex realists would comment? Interesting 🤔

Edited to add: misogyny is rife in healthcare. It’s no surprise that’s reflected in maternity outcomes.

nicepotoftea · 18/12/2025 14:27

MaryPaul · 18/12/2025 14:19

Didn't expect to see all the terfs come out of the woods on this, sad lives you must lead chasing ghosts

Just a normal day discussing women's rights on the feminism board and having pointless conversations with men's rights activists...

FondOfOwls · 18/12/2025 14:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 14:46

nicepotoftea · 18/12/2025 13:40

I thought that following scandals where women had suffered bad outcomes because because of emphasis on 'natural birth' they weren't discouraged any more?

I was having flashbacks after reading an article in the telegraph and the comments were ‘interesting’.

Women should stop apologising for choosing caesareans by Ella Whelan

I would gift the article but I'm not sure how to.

OP posts:
MistyGreenAndBlue · 18/12/2025 14:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And hasn't made one single coherent point yet. Still, we live in hope right? **

BundleBoogie · 18/12/2025 15:26

MaryPaul · 18/12/2025 13:49

My point was made clearly. Why are you getting so fixated with me?

No it wasn’t. Why are you being antagonistic to Seethlaw who is only asking you polite questions ?

BundleBoogie · 18/12/2025 15:29

MaryPaul · 18/12/2025 13:56

Do we ban tattoos, flying on airplanes, xrays, smoking, alcohool consumption and calorific surplus? Ever heard of body autonomy?

Can you clarify which of those involve medical staff harming healthy bodies? I’m not following your train of thought.

Bagsintheboot · 18/12/2025 15:40

I think your premise is completely flawed.

Women are not "generally denied" caesearean sections. In fact it was reported in the news just yesterday that c-sections have overtaken regular births as the most frequent method of delivery.

Nor are women who identify as men "fast-tracked" to a hysterectomy. The waiting times to even be seen at a GI clinic are years long. You make it sound like you can rock up, claim gender dysphoria, and have your womb whipped out in a month. It's simply untrue.

Nor is maternity care or gender care comparable. You may as well measure maternity outcomes by opthalmology or cardiovascular.

Ketzele · 18/12/2025 15:44

I know where you're coming from, OP, but I dont think it's a helpful line of argument. It's a bit like when trans people argue that cis people are allowed puberty blockers so why shouldn't they. Context is everything!

Grammarnut · 18/12/2025 15:55

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 10:12

@TwoLoonsAndASprout none of it makes any sense. It’s like being trapped in a funfair hall of mirrors where every mirror just shows women getting screwed over and stoically going along with it.

The cesareans really annoys me because I was refused and had massive birth damage which messed me up psychologically for years.

I am so sorry that happened! I suspect a lot of problems with maternity services is that personnel are focused on a 'normal' birth and don't listen to mothers but also think any intervention is wrong, which ends up with catastrophes. A need to change the culture - how, I don't know since 'nature is right' seems to be the mantra (without any realisation that it is entirely 'natural' for some babies and mothers to die in childbirth!)

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 16:01

Bagsintheboot · 18/12/2025 15:40

I think your premise is completely flawed.

Women are not "generally denied" caesearean sections. In fact it was reported in the news just yesterday that c-sections have overtaken regular births as the most frequent method of delivery.

Nor are women who identify as men "fast-tracked" to a hysterectomy. The waiting times to even be seen at a GI clinic are years long. You make it sound like you can rock up, claim gender dysphoria, and have your womb whipped out in a month. It's simply untrue.

Nor is maternity care or gender care comparable. You may as well measure maternity outcomes by opthalmology or cardiovascular.

Maybe it is, I haven’t had a baby for the last 10 years and perhaps it has changed, but I think the discussion around caesareans remains that the medical harms are greater in caesarean than natural birth therefore women should be encouraged to have natural births, its also cheaper for the NHS etc etc. The conversation around the two is quite different and I was interested to discuss it.

Im not sure how we would also compare it to opthalmology, or cardiovascular surgery? Would you be comparing the choice of stents to open heart bypasses or something like that? Or contacts vs glasses? Glaucoma surgery vs no glaucoma surgery? I don’t think there is an easy comparison in either of those.

OP posts:
Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 16:07

Ketzele · 18/12/2025 15:44

I know where you're coming from, OP, but I dont think it's a helpful line of argument. It's a bit like when trans people argue that cis people are allowed puberty blockers so why shouldn't they. Context is everything!

I did wonder, Im not as incisive as a lot of you all, it feels very unfair though, only some people get a choice to risk ‘harm’ on the NHS in order to manage the mental health outcomes.

OP posts:
Bagsintheboot · 18/12/2025 16:11

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 16:01

Maybe it is, I haven’t had a baby for the last 10 years and perhaps it has changed, but I think the discussion around caesareans remains that the medical harms are greater in caesarean than natural birth therefore women should be encouraged to have natural births, its also cheaper for the NHS etc etc. The conversation around the two is quite different and I was interested to discuss it.

Im not sure how we would also compare it to opthalmology, or cardiovascular surgery? Would you be comparing the choice of stents to open heart bypasses or something like that? Or contacts vs glasses? Glaucoma surgery vs no glaucoma surgery? I don’t think there is an easy comparison in either of those.

I'm sure there is still pushback in some quarters against c-sections (I'm planning one and I fully expect to have to argue for it to a greater or lesser extent), but given that they are now the most common method of birth I simply don't think it's right to say that women are generally being denied them. If that were true I'd expect c-sections to be much rarer.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yqjezrnj4o.amp

kittykarate · 18/12/2025 16:19

Well - are they the most 'common'?
45% is c-sections (planned & emergency)
44% is 'natural'
11% is 'extra support' (forceps is the example they give, and this probably includes inductions)

So I'd say vaginal births are still the most common (44 + 11).

RedToothBrush · 18/12/2025 16:24

You only have to scratch the surface before you see how little of it makes sense.

Actually it makes perfect sense.

The NHS can't be arsed to sort out sexual assaults.
The NHS thinks that being a woman is based on feelings in your head not biology.
The NHS changes all the literature relating to 'woman' but not 'man'.
The NHS has a long track record of outcomes in women being poorer for the same conditions.
The NHS has a long track record of women reporting being listened to less.
The NHS continues to employ men who have done all sorts to women whilst women who do wrong get suspended much quicker and for longer.
Women are more likely to be the victim of an NHS health scandal.
Women have been complaining for years about the state of maternity care but because they don't do it through the wrong channels (often because they don't think they will be listened to) the NHS shrugs and says 'theres no problem' despite a ton of evidence.
Women get told to be grateful for the care they get. Men are not told the same.

It's almost as if the NHS is institutionally sexist.

Fwiw I no longer attend a medical appointment without DH. For good reason.

Pingponghavoc · 18/12/2025 16:32

kittykarate · 18/12/2025 16:19

Well - are they the most 'common'?
45% is c-sections (planned & emergency)
44% is 'natural'
11% is 'extra support' (forceps is the example they give, and this probably includes inductions)

So I'd say vaginal births are still the most common (44 + 11).

Also, half of c-sections were planned and half emergency, indicating that a lot of these were down to poor monitoring rather than women choice.

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 16:48

Bagsintheboot · 18/12/2025 16:11

I'm sure there is still pushback in some quarters against c-sections (I'm planning one and I fully expect to have to argue for it to a greater or lesser extent), but given that they are now the most common method of birth I simply don't think it's right to say that women are generally being denied them. If that were true I'd expect c-sections to be much rarer.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yqjezrnj4o.amp

Edited

Presumably as an educated and informed person with determination you will be listened to and allowed to assess your own risk. I think not all women are in your shoes.

I hope it all goes well for you, and is smooth sailing for you both xx

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 18/12/2025 17:25

Coatsoff42 · 18/12/2025 16:07

I did wonder, Im not as incisive as a lot of you all, it feels very unfair though, only some people get a choice to risk ‘harm’ on the NHS in order to manage the mental health outcomes.

Yes, the general point that in all areas of medicine bar one, the focus is on improving health, not destroying it.

Removing healthy body parts, or taking strong drugs that we know will cause atrophy certain body parts (like uterus, vagina or testicles), resulting in the need for their removal for pain reduction, is not ok.

Apart from the cost to society of creating ill people for life, there will also be the cost of compensating those vulnerable young people who were deliberately harmed given ‘treatment’ on the basis of self diagnosis. This is going to be a huge problem.

hholiday · 18/12/2025 22:23

Just as another point of comparison, I’d love to know why so many doctors are apparently fine with the sterilisation of healthy children but uncomfortable with the ethics of sterilising rapists? www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crmkv3jezzdo.amp

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2025 10:08

Going back to the OP, there are some interesting bits of information.

When the whole C-section by choice for mental health/ other reasons came about there's a few very neglected point.

For years EMCS and ELCS had been conflated into one which massively distorted the methodology. For starters when you attempt a VB one of the possible outcome is an EMCS. But the data relating to EMCS was always isolated from VBs. Equally when you studied a planned ELCS separately from a EMCS there were massive differences. An EMCS is considerably more dangerous and ultimately this is the outcome you want to avoid.

These also never looked at harms in terms of mental health and what denying a CS would cause. Or harms in terms of various long term complications.

What was notable though was that affluent middle class white women who were older and educated - and able to make the most informed decision were getting markedly better outcomes - short term, long term, physical and mental - than anyone else. And this is true of pretty much all medical issues. And yet this was the group being smeared and labelled as 'too posh to push'.

Then there's costs. When adding up all the costs for a VB or an CS no one bothered to look at the costs due to complications. This includes mental health. When NICE did this, they concluded that offering ELCS was comparible in cost to the NHS when they factored in urinary incontinence alone - not any other complications. They concluded on this basis they couldn't argue against it. The issue is which budget pot this money comes out of.

They also realised that if enough women have an ELCS you reach a level where that becomes cheaper than attempting VBs. Why? Because it affects staffing costs. Most babies are born in antisocial hours - by scheduling births you could massively reduce the numbers of staff needed to manage an NHS ward. They concluded that this was actually an undesirable outcome because for many women a VB and the choice to have a VB was better. We do see this happening in parts of the world though - China has such a staffing crisis they shifted to this pattern (noting the one child policy as part of this as many of the risks with an ELCS are to do with subsequent births).

On that above mentioned point about subsequent births, given one of the trends in the UK is to have a baby in your late thirties or early fourties and only plan to have an only child this should be something that is considered - this age group is most at risk of EMCS.

Further to this there were deliberate efforts by certain groups to suppress data relating to ELCS. In the 2000 WHO introduced the idea of an optimum level of CS - this lead to many British hospitals trying to keep to this level. Yet it was nothing but an ideological concept and one that data WHO itself produced contradicted. They put this study out which had a conclusion that read that planned VBs were safer than planned ELCS. The data in the rest of the report said no such thing. They were actually pretty comparable with ELCS actually coming out very marginally safer! This was shocking and institutionalised ideology over and above research because those doing the research had an agenda and bias.

Further to this other studies realised that those most at risk of EMCS were much more likely to have a history of anxiety related issues or fear of birth. It is thought to block oxytocin and the progression of labour. So blocking women who were citing these worries was utterly counter productive.

And this is what the older middle class white affluent women who were educated were identifying. A scientific and rational basis for their decision making. They were making informed decisions.

My personal problem with the more to more ELCS is that some of the women doing this aren't informed. You have younger women who want more children making the same decision not realising where the risks are stacked. Many are choosing ELCS out of fear of poor care during labour rather than because of other reasons. This is unacceptable and a comment on the state of maternity care rather than the risks of childbirth.

Compare this with what's happening with kids being transitioned. It's based on what we know to be highly flawed data, measures and ideas. It's being carried out on children lacking capacity. The push for it is coming from ideological groups who have their own agenda and therefore a conflict of interest with the best interests of these children.

The children most at risk are the highly vulnerable. They are not advocating for themselves. We know that children in care are on the front line of this. Outside influences and duress are parr for the course.

And much of the same still applies to young adults.

It is the exact opposite dynamic. And yet it's still underpinned by the same issue: healthcare, particularly involving the care of women, is a target for ideological interference and control. Sexism drives ideology in healthcare. It is institutionally sexist.

Ideological interference does not tend to get involved in mens health care. It's incredibly noticeable.

When ideology mixes with healthcare, scandals occur. There are no exceptions to this rule. It always happens because doctors stop paying attention to science. This always means that women, girls, non-whites, homosexuals and disabled people are always more at risk of being the victim of a medical scandal.

The two subjects: medically transitioning or choosing a CS are sometimes compared as being examples of patient led care. This is fundamentally misleading and flawed.
The data actually shows numerous very compelling reasons why women might legitimately make an informed choice to have an ELCS. The risks are well known and understood and continue to be examined.
When it comes medical transition, most data relates to males, medicalisation in children has massive data suppression issues and is lacking in long term data and information from other associated issues further down the line isn't remotely connected. There are massive consent related issues. There are massive costs from unsuccessful surgery which is common. And ultimately we don't even know if it really works as there isn't much work on detransition issues and we know there are high levels of regret which are being actively suppressed (including suicide related issues post surgery).

They couldn't be more different.

Now this is a comparison I do care about because it very much is about harms to women by the medical profession. But equally my personal circumstances involve both - my parents have tried to make equivalence claims about choice. I've gone one way my sibling has gone the other.

So actually knowing all this IS important and should be talked about because it is driving the support for transition for a lot of people on these false premises and lack of awareness of just how flawed the comparison is. And actually it's girls and women who transition who are particularly at risk precisely because of the invisibility of sex and how it's starting to become apparent that outcomes in females are particularly negative because of when they transition and the treatments being particularly unstudied / studies suppressed.

Women like me who chose an ELCS are being used as a justification to transition children despite a lack of evidence.

You absolutely shouldn't have 'choice' on the NHS if there isn't a robust case to make in terms of scientific basis for that choice. It doesn't matter what the condition. This is not happening.

We fought a battle just over a decade ago to have it recognised just how the evidence and the financial arguments against planned ELCS were deeply flawed and ideologically biased and had to present a medically and financially sound case for why women should be listened to and choices in certain circumstances given precisely because of prejudices and bias from those with ideological agendas.

This is what I expect from any other area of medicine. And yet trans ideology has written rough shot over ethics and evidence. This is not ok.

203percent · 19/12/2025 16:15

I think Paul makes a good point around bodily autonomy actually.

Exercising bodily autonomy - asking for sterilisation under 30 because I really don't want any more children and if I get pregnant I'm scared for my mental health - NO!

Exercising bodily autonomy - asking to remove breasts because they affect my mental health - YES.

Exercising bodily autonomy - I want a ceasarean because my last birth was horrific and I'm scared for my mental health - NO.

Exercising bodily automnomy - I want to make my penis look like a vulva becauseit affects my mental health - YES.

It's hardly consistent, is it?

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